MDAC First Listen (part 00101000)

[Hawtin]

Ok, new plan there will be two payment options for the FWC:-

1. £65 + FWC "at cost" to help solve the salvage MDAC owner situation.

2. £100 + FWC "at cost", I'll buy back the salvage units, and keep the balance to help live on as per the original plan!

I've a glass of ...coke in front of me and I'm going to ponder the new front panel ID for the Fusion DAC and VFET amp..... I just don't know what to say

I'm ok with this plan. Hopefully others agree too. Full width chassis with all the recent developments sound very good. With that said, I can still understand how and why some might disagree...

I agree with what LarsS (if I remember correct) said - If full width chassis becomes the way for the project, a fair exit for those who cannot accept the change is needed. After all, as others said before me: http://mdac2.lakewestaudio.com/

 

[Rune]

John, are you suggesting I'm to pay for the maybe useless salvaged MDAC's out there?

I may be going for the FWC depending on timeschedule and cost.

However, I'm not going to pay for the salvaged MDAC units if that's what your proposing.

I'd say the only decent way of handling them is either you buy them back out of your own pocket or repair and sell them on.

There should also be defined a Fair Exit for those that decides to leave the project.

Lars,
So you rather delay the project 3 month for the sake of £63 out of principle.

I rather pay the extra £63 than delaying the project further.

And what John chooses to do with the salvaged DACs is up to him.

 

[fusion5]

Outside of these original 200 PFM units built and test by myself the "official" Fusion DACs will be sold at a FAR higher price! Outside of the development funds, these PFM units are being sold at cost! Also the Fusion bulk foils will not be an option due to the complexities of managing the production supply chain. I'll be hand modifying the Fusion bulk foil PFM units myself.

I think this might be the most important argument for continuing down the FWC road. Having the final PFM units identical (with better SQ due to the resistor upgrade) to the following commercial product will guarantee compatibility with all upcoming (software) upgrades and gizmos for the "official" Fusion DAC. This should also improve spare part availability and resale value.

 

[JohnW]

It's already 23:40 here so Heading back to the apartment, well this is my first PFM post from the HK MTR

I think I've come up with an interesting design for the front panels - will try to draw it up tomorrow in 3D.

 

[ChrisPa]

I do have some specific interest in the minidsp involvement, as I'm keen to integrate multiple (3 or 4) subs and have held off for some time awaiting developments.

Its been said by John and quoted by a few others that they will provide front panel/UI development resource, so benefitting the project and presumably their dsp expertise will be brought to bear too.

Anything that helps spread the development workload sounds like a sensible approach, but the thing is resource isn't foc, so how is their involvement being funded?

Will they perhaps brand a MDAC2/minidsp box and sell in on their site and so recover their investment that way?

Will it be a DSPeaker Antimode 2 equivalent?

Also will they continue to support their parts of the project in the medium to long term, as John and Dominic supported the original MDAC?

If not who owns the UI/front panel/DSP IP i.e. can it subsequently be worked on by John/Dominic?

Appreciate that these are qs that can't necessarily be answered right now...

I think the involvement of miniDSP as a partner organisation is going to be very productive. I think there is a far more realistic chance of future product development within sensible time scales, and their obvious technical expertise in the dsp arena will help.

So how are minidsp going to get their income?

How do their concepts of dsp implementation, sample rates, alias filtering etc. match with yours John?
How does this interact with the games you're planning to play with the FPGA?

(Minidsp products are all based around sharc chips, aren't they?)

Outside of these original 200 PFM units built and test by myself the "official" Fusion DACs will be sold at a FAR higher price! Outside of the development funds, these PFM units are being sold at cost!

So there is going to be production after the initial batch is there?
Where did I miss this?

Does this answer my first question?

 

[Sibbers]

Imagine if there were no opportunity for further business if this thing proves out? It would just be a high pressie hobby for very little return. John would be as we to just make a statement for his own home. The plan has to have some hope for a proper run of the end product and this whole project is part of that gamble.

My view only, of course

 

[Purité Audio]

The MiniDSP concept as it stands at the moment, is a small inexpensive piece of hardware and various 'plug-in' pieces of software.
One measures the room or integrates a subwoofer or subwoofer, or creates an active crossover on one's PC, using the MiniDSP software, and then that correction is downloaded to the hardware, the computer can then be disconnected.
Keith.

 

[Steven Toy]

Lars,
So you rather delay the project 3 month for the sake of £63 out of principle.

I rather pay the extra £63 than delaying the project further.

And what John chooses to do with the salvaged DACs is up to him.

Quite.

 

[Achim]

Hi John,

have you considered the legal aspects of offering a complete product in FWC?

You would need CE certification and probably a lot of other stuff in other regions.

Also, as there is a host of additional parts around the motherboard(s) that would need to be chosen and sourced, I still cannot believe that the FWC route will not introduce time delays.

Cheers,
Achim

 

[LarsS]

Lars,
So you rather delay the project 3 month for the sake of £63 out of principle.

I rather pay the extra £63 than delaying the project further.

And what John chooses to do with the salvaged DACs is up to him.

Rune,

I'm quite good at estimating projects.

Considering what remains to be designed: Digital PCB, ADC, miniDSP, FPGA, HQ PSU, Front panel display, Backpanel ... & all involved software, Testing, Error fixing.

I for one am having difficulty seeing a product delivered to us project shareholders prior summer 2016.

Agree that John can do whatever he wants with the salvaged DAC's.

What we need to address is the hot topic of a Fair Exit for those that needs to leave the project. I wont probably be one of them but we need to be fair and just vs whoever takes that decision.

 

[timola]

2. £100 + FWC "at cost", I'll buy back the salvage units, and keep the balance to help live on as per the original plan!

I'm good with this option.....I want to ensure John always has enough JD to hand....it seems to improve his design and problem solving capabilities too...What rock and hard place....you meant ice in a glass...me thinks.

Can't wait to see the 3D sketch of the front panel.....

 

[davidjt]

Hi John,

have you considered the legal aspects of offering a complete product in FWC?

You would need CE certification and probably a lot of other stuff in other regions.

Achim

But we are not the general public: more like argumentative partners.

 

[sq225917]

Hi John,

have you considered the legal aspects of offering a complete product in FWC?

You would need CE certification and probably a lot of other stuff in other regions.

Also, as there is a host of additional parts around the motherboard(s) that would need to be chosen and sourced, I still cannot believe that the FWC route will not introduce time delays.

Cheers,
Achim

This is a custom built product, usual standards do not apply. He can just self cert.

If he sells the design on then ce cert becomes the vendor's issue, though I'm sure they would require that it passes as part of the basic requirements. The two minute, forty amp earth bond test is always fun...

 

[timola]

i think i found the tdac design.....

...just kidding!

 

[LarsS]

Fair Exit proposal:

Whoever decides to leave the project at this time shall be fully compensated i.e. full refund of the invested sum.
Remaining project shareholders mutually covers the total amount with an equal split amongst them.

Example (probably worst case): 100 project shareholders decides to leave project. Each has funded the amount of 400 GBP. Total amount to be split between remaining project shareholders 40 000 GBP equals 400 GBP/remaining shareholder.

Note I just picked a random number in the example above (easy to calculate), us agreeing on the Fair Exit is what's important.

 

[Rune]

What we need to address is the hot topic of a Fair Exit for those that needs to leave the project. I wont probably be one of them but we need to be fair and just vs whoever takes that decision.

I totally agree with you that people who want to leave the project should get their money back. That is also why I suggested that the ones with salvaged DACs should be compensated (I am not one of them)
I believe that it will be very few that will actually leave because if you do the math the a commercial version could easily cost > 5X the price we pay.

Fair Exit proposal:

Whoever decides to leave the project at this time shall be fully compensated i.e. full refund of the invested sum.
Remaining project shareholders mutually covers the total amount with an equal split amongst them.

Example (probably worst case): 100 project shareholders decides to leave project. Each has funded the amount of 400 GBP. Total amount to be split between remaining project shareholders 40 000 GBP equals 400 GBP/remaining shareholder.

Note I just picked a random number in the example above (easy to calculate), us agreeing on the Fair Exit is what's important.

It will probably be less than 20 maybe even only 10

 

[timola]

Fair Exit proposal:

Whoever decides to leave the project at this time shall be fully compensated i.e. full refund of the invested sum.
Remaining project shareholders mutually covers the total amount with an equal split amongst them.

Example (probably worst case): 100 project shareholders decides to leave project. Each has funded the amount of 400 GBP. Total amount to be split between remaining project shareholders 40 000 GBP equals 400 GBP/remaining shareholder.

Note I just picked a random number in the example above (easy to calculate), us agreeing on the Fair Exit is what's important.

I can't see it being that many people and there are the salvaged mdac holders to consider too. Most leaving would not be as magnanimous as Bob L. for sure they wouldn't be happy due to their commitment of time and would want compensation for not getting the initial promise too.......Anyway, I hope it doesn't come to what you suggest as John has said he would do his best to cater for these guys on an individual basis, which is very generous and accommodating in my opinion....if John needs extra funds or JD for this, I'm all ears.

For me even your worst case scenario above is well worth it for moving the FWC forward...SQ is king!

 

[dtd]

Also happy to cough up for #2 : £100 + FWC "cost". Having tried quite a few £1k~ DACs already, I suspect this will be huge value for money even with the extra £100 cost.

 

[timola]

I believe that it will be very few that will actually leave because if you do the math the a commercial version could easily cost > 5X the price we pay.

I hope everyone appreciates this important point.

 

[jadidih101]

Fair Exit proposal:

Whoever decides to leave the project at this time shall be fully compensated i.e. full refund of the invested sum.
Remaining project shareholders mutually covers the total amount with an equal split amongst them.

Example (probably worst case): 100 project shareholders decides to leave project. Each has funded the amount of 400 GBP. Total amount to be split between remaining project shareholders 40 000 GBP equals 400 GBP/remaining shareholder.

Note I just picked a random number in the example above (easy to calculate), us agreeing on the Fair Exit is what's important.

You are assuming that the people who hose to leave would not be replaced by new enrolees.

I am very confident once the spec of John's Fusion DAC is better known people would be queuing up to join. Considering John already has interest for larger production from others also speaks to this.

I believe people who will stay the course will find, financially speaking, the delivered product will be worth far more than they paid for it (resale value wise).

Personally, I am buying it for my enjoyment.