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Where does the money in expensive speakers get spent?

There's a lot to be gained from economies of scale, mass production. Also there's a lot to be lost too. That's where the price factor really hits home. If you're designing for a mass production run and relying on off the shelf drivers, many compromises may be made.

Coincidently, I've been in contact with Audes about an upgrade woofer for my Blues. It's no off the shelf driver, they design and make it.

As it's low volume, they hold no stock either at the moment.

However, the nice thing here is they can make it and they are making me two woofers to order, from their factory now.

Should be posted out soon, hopefully have them fitted next week.

I guess to some degree you do get what you pay for. Actually there are some overpriced items in the hi-fi market and some real gem off the shelf mass produced items too, but there's a sweet spot where stuff is still affordable, yet designed and made as if it were bespoke, with attention to detail like a one off, possibly involving hand-made details. This is a good place to be in hi-fi, as it's one of those things were a little detail and finesse really goes a long way.

Anyway, so where does the cost go. I can tell you for the impressive woofers they were not that pricey. £ to € definitely helping in that respect. But I think when you consider a 3 or 4 way speaker, possibly 8 drivers, crossovers and a complex cabinet it sometimes isn't that hard to see how the prices start to escalate.

Still, if you're spending money, spending it on decent speakers has to be a good place to spend a good chunk of your budget. Bad speakers, nothing will sound right.
 
finkaudio said:
Hi Keith,

there is a lot you can gain. First of all, not everybody wants to use the same drivers that others use. Second you can do a lot of improvements independent from an OEM who might have to follow a different agenda. By doing your own research, you can concentrate on what YOU think is important. Speakers made a big jump up technology in the last 5 years, but most of the more well know OEM-vendors still do the same they did many moons ago. As long as they can sell, there is no need to do crazy things.

ATB KH
Click to expand...

Thanks K, it would be interesting to discuss speaker and particularly drive unit design if ever the opportunity ever arose, I saw on your site you had some fancy new laser measuring equipment!
May I ask what do you find yourself working on mostly, complete loudspeaker designs or specialist consultancy work for other manufacturers?
VB Kei.
 
finkaudio said:
I can only speak for myself of course, but I always use some extra filtering for the baffle step. The traditional way is to use a larger inductor on the woofer filter to bring down the midband. As a result you end up with a hole below the baffle step cut-off. This has something to do with the real world cabinet shape.
Here is a simulation of a traditional 2-way with 6" driver and the theoretical response.
bafflestep.jpg


As you can see, you have the 6dB shift, but also an extra 2dB hump at 1k. Most rectangular speakers have the hump - so you need to do something with it. Don't hope it will smooth out in the room :)

I normally take out about half of the step plus the 2dB hump. Leaving the 6dB in completely, makes the speaker forward and shouty.

ATB KH
Click to expand...

Agreed although that hump can also be down to the cab volume or tuning point not being optimised for the driver in question. Interested in your reasoning for that hump for rectangular speakers as the transition from 2 to 4 Pi space is theoretically smooth unless diffraction due to geometry and driver layout significantly adds to directivity at that specific frequency.
 
Pac1 said:
Agreed although that hump can also be down to the cab volume or tuning point not being optimised for the driver in question. Interested in your reasoning for that hump for rectangular speakers as the transition from 2 to 4 Pi space is theoretically smooth unless diffraction due to geometry and driver layout significantly adds to directivity at that specific frequency.
Click to expand...

Sorry, no. At 1k, you will not see tuning effects. However this is a simulation of a front baffle with 22cmx36cm and a 6.5" driver sitting at the usual position without any parameters. Just the acoustic load of the baffle This hump is the diffraction effect, indeed. There is not a lot you can do with a 6.5" driver on such a baffle.:p

I use this little simulation tool a lot and I always compare the results with measurements. It shows me how much I have to do about the hump and what is the pure baffle step. If I have more space on the front baffle, I can reduce the hump by moving the driver around, but with a classic 2-way bookshelf, it's difficult.

Best regards
KH
 
Purite Audio said:
Thanks K, it would be interesting to discuss speaker and particularly drive unit design if ever the opportunity ever arose, I saw on your site you had some fancy new laser measuring equipment!
May I ask what do you find yourself working on mostly, complete loudspeaker designs or specialist consultancy work for other manufacturers?
VB Kei.
Click to expand...

We do mostly complete speakers for other manufacturers :). Second business area is to work for car manufacturers on drive units and tuning.

Sure, we can discuss speakers and drive unit designs. We just need to find a show we both visit :)


ATB KH
 
K that is interesting, there was a thread here recently based on Floyd Toole ,his work before and at Harmon, would you agree with his assertions as to what makes a good loudspeaker,
ie a flat on axis Fr and a smooth,even off axis response?
Thanks again it is interesting to hear your thoughts ,
KR Keith.
 
Purite Audio said:
K that is interesting, there was a thread here recently based on Floyd Toole ,his work before and at Harmon, would you agree with his assertions as to what makes a good loudspeaker,
ie a flat on axis Fr and a smooth,even off axis response?
Thanks again it is interesting to hear your thoughts ,
KR Keith.
Click to expand...

Hi Keith,

yes, definitely. OK, for the response curve you need to think about the position in the room and "tailor" your target accordingly. So a bookshelf that can go closer to a wall needs a different target compared with a floorstander that is working away from the wall. A woofer closer to the floor changes the target in the anechoic room as well - but that's all a question of experience.

Best regards

KH
 
Driver, component matching/pairing and UK hand made cabinets. Speakers aren't rocket science, they're really quite a simple formula.
 
Cereal Killer said:
Driver, component matching/pairing and UK hand made cabinets. Speakers aren't rocket science, they're really quite a simple formula.
Click to expand...

...I wish it would be that simple. I'm happy to show you here in Essen how complex speaker development is. Driver technology made a big jump in the last few years. Cabinets are now the weak part of the speaker and no, it doesn't help just to make them stiff :cool: Still a lot to do :p

Best regards

Karl-Heinz
 
finkaudio said:
...I wish it would be that simple. I'm happy to show you here in Essen how complex speaker development is. Driver technology made a big jump in the last few years. Cabinets are now the weak part of the speaker and no, it doesn't help just to make them stiff :cool: Still a lot to do :p

Best regards

Karl-Heinz
Click to expand...

In my first job we used to do some acoustics. We had an anechoic chamber (weird) and used to take drivers and cabs for measurement. It's amazing how much time it takes to really optimise the whole package, driver, cabinets, ports if you have them. You start with formula but that's the starting point, then the magic happens. So yes a lot to do for sure. Then there's the construction. One of those things, looks simple but like designing a good amp there's the difference between passable and good which can take a lot of extra effort :)
 
finkaudio said:
Driver technology made a big jump in the last few years.
Click to expand...
From the outside one can see moves in the last few years by a number of the commercial speaker suppliers to better control diffraction from the driver surrounds although this rather strangely doesn't seem to extend to an increased use of waveguides to control the directivity. As far as I am aware the traditional driver suppliers like SEAS, Scan-Speak, Vifa,... have not followed this direction. Have there also been similar developments in less visible areas?
 
I know B&W have done a lot of work on optimising the cone termination, better termination of resonance, less out of phase output etc. However, I believe they had to backtrack rather because they found that the best termination in terms of cone breakup (this is for their Kevlar mid) blunted transient response. It's always a delicate balancing act when an element of a design must serve more than one purpose (as many do).

I've just been having a read of the Fink Audio website and very interesting it is too - highly recommended :).
 
h.g. said:
this rather strangely doesn't seem to extend to an increased use of waveguides to control the directivity
Click to expand...

Because waveguides were a common disguise for cone tweeters on cheap ghetto blasters, so they have an image problem perhaps?
 
To answer the op question, firstly you need to understand the details of how to engineer a speaker & what this involves, without this exact knowledge you will not understand why some cost £20,000 & some £100.

Plenty of high end speakers "look" quite plain compared some extravagant looking budget models, cabinet materials, internal bracing, driver design & having the genius to make all of this into a speaker that sounds both engaging & musical is an art form & why some cost the prices they do.
 
h.g. said:
From the outside one can see moves in the last few years by a number of the commercial speaker suppliers to better control diffraction from the driver surrounds although this rather strangely doesn't seem to extend to an increased use of waveguides to control the directivity. As far as I am aware the traditional driver suppliers like SEAS, Scan-Speak, Vifa,... have not followed this direction. Have there also been similar developments in less visible areas?
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't like waveguides a lot for HiFi. To use them in a studio - fine, but for home use, I prefer to do a 2 way with a low crossover frequency. But OK, that's another story.

Improvements have been done on magnet system design and suspension system, reducing distortion a lot. That's basically down to the Klippel system that made complete new measurements possible. FEA and BEA also helped a lot to design better cones and surrounds, as you can try many within short time without making a tool every time.

Same with cabinets - simulation together with a Scanning Vibrometer helps a lot to design a nice sounding cabinet.

ATB KH
 
KH, could you explain your thinking behind the 'Munich' design, or what you consider are the important elements in loudspeaker design.
I completely understand if you don't want to discuss your own designs.
KR Keith.
 
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