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The Great Obesity Epidemic

Just because there is an element of social construction in the definition and diagnosis of mental illness does not make it any less real than say cancer . The effects and consequences are what they are .

You seem to repeatedly want to collapse mental illness in to a state of unhappiness , this is not correct or helpful .

And this sentence “The question for me is whether this is a symptom of illness or of society.”

Does not make sense . It obvious that a persons mental illness will in some way be causally connected to the society they live in .

Not sure I agree with your last sentence. You may make a case for depression, perhaps, being causally connected to society, but as you yourself say, mental illness is not simply depression. Some depression may not arise from a triggering event, although probably a lot does.

I struggle to see, though, how conditions like schizophrenia or other psychoses, for example, are 'obviously' causally connected to society. At most, society may be an aggravating factor, and our task ought to be to make it a mitigating one.
 
Not sure I agree with your last sentence. You may make a case for depression, perhaps, being causally connected to society, but as you yourself say, mental illness is not simply depression. Some depression may not arise from a triggering event, although probably a lot does.

I struggle to see, though, how conditions like schizophrenia or other psychoses, for example, are 'obviously' causally connected to society. At most, society may be an aggravating factor, and our task ought to be to make it a mitigating one.

You don't think such illness as you list have anything to do way people are socialized and brought up .

As it happens I have a brother who as been locked up in a secure unit for 12 years as a consequence of a diagnosis of schizophrenia and string of criminal convictions .
 
Well, what is the difference between you and your brother's upbringing which had a causal effect on his schizophrenia, but merely seems to have affected your spelling ;)
 
Well, what is the difference between you and your brother's upbringing which had a causal effect on his schizophrenia, but merely seems to have affected your spelling ;)

At the age of 9 /11 , he went to live with my dad and I stayed with my mum.

However , siblings have different socialization and experiences within the same family .
 
Can you define 'Mindfulness' well enough that a study could be done into its effectiveness at combatting mental illness?

Because it looks like tosh to me.

Paul

Paul,
'Looks like tosh to me', is hardly a devastating analysis now is it?

You clearly haven't applied your usual dispassionate and somewhat 'digital' thinking to the subject.

On what basis do you conclude that it is 'tosh'

Mull
 
Gerald, as I'm sure you don't need me to tell you, correlation is not causation. I'd be wary of ascribing the 'cause' of your brother's awful condition to differences between your upbringings, socialization and so on, unless you have other evidence. I don't want to discuss that with you, though, I feel uncomfortable mentioning it and won't pry.

Clearly, some kids have traumatic upbringings (childrens' homes and abuse are topical) and others are brought up in 'normal' loving families. Some from the latter will develop psychotic, or other mental illnesses, and some from the former will lead as normal a life as the next man. If the causal relationship was unequivocal, then that wouldn't be the case. I'd agree it may be a factor, but it would seem necessary for there to be some degree of susceptibility. Whether that is brain chemistry, internal wiring, heredity, or what, I haven't the faintest idea and won't speculate because it'd be pointless.
 
Eh , once again you appear to be ascribing things to me that I did not say .

I made a simple statement . All mental illness is to some extent caused by the external world . Even if it at an epistemological level “The limits of my language means the limits of my world.” Wittgenstein.

You appear to be saying it is not , that it is akin to a biological issue such as why i have brown hair . However the "mental" is not a closed biological system it is always social.
 
Now I'm at a kompewter, for Paul (or anyone else interested):
I obviously read about a bit before posting. You haven't made any attempt to answer my question. Is the 'MBCT' described in the paper you chose the same as the 'Mindfulness' you mean?

Still looks like tosh. Or a Mick P approach with a process and a fancy name.

Coincidentally Amazon sent me a link to http://local.amazon.co.uk/Northampton/B00NVFHTZ0 this morning. Looks like an excellent value cure for depression.

Paul
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
What physical conditions do placebos work with ? The only one i know is IBS and that as a psychological element to it .

There has been lots of research on placebos and they are some weird sh*t. If you BELIEVE someone has healing powers or special pills they can have a big impact on the healing process. Strangely, even when some people are told they are been given a placebo it can have some beneficial effects for physical conditions.
 
There has been lots of research on placebos and they are some weird sh*t. If you BELIEVE someone has healing powers or special pills they can have a big impact on the healing process. Strangely, even when some people are told they are been given a placebo it can have some beneficial effects for physical conditions.

There is not for treating organic biological illness except for IBS . Which is why i asked for your evidence . It is to my knowledge a myth .
 
Eh , once again you appear to be ascribing things to me that I did not say .

Uh, okay. You've qualified your remark more clearly now ("to some extent" is to me clearer than what you originally said, in the context in which you said it).
 
There is not for treating organic biological illness except for IBS . Which is why i asked for your evidence . It is to my knowledge a myth .

IBS is not a biological illness; there is no inflammation. If there was it would have another name like Crohns, inflammatory bowel disease or colitis.

IBS is involuntary contractions of the smooth muscles lining the bowel. The only treatment for it is antispasmodic drugs, peppermint capsules or low-dosage tricyclic anti-depressants if particularly persistent.

A placebo may work for IBS because it is linked with stress and anxiety.

Merlin's views and the links he provides without any kind of analysis seem to stigmatise mental health issues like depression an anxiety. I care little for the daft (conspiracy) theories behind why more people are being diagnosed now than ever for depression and anxiety. If you think bereavement somehow excuses you from being given the depression label you are clearly stigmatising the condition. Whatever the cause, nobody chooses to feel depressed or anxious and cannot simply 'snap out of it.'

More women are diagnosed than men, not because they suffer more but because they tend to talk about their feelings more. Men have a greater tendency to suffer in silence although this is changing. I would attribute an increase in the numbers of people being diagnosed with depression and anxiety not to the ease with which SSRIs can be prescribed but to the fact that mental illness as a whole over the last few years is less and less stigmatised so more people are seeking help rather than suffering in silence and/or not admitting that they have an illness for which treatment may be available.

I also dismiss woolly notions that the modern world is a depressing place and those who think it is so are lacking in perspective. Not everyone in the modern world suffers from mental illness but approximately one in five do from time to time and this has probably always been the case. Surely it is better to seek treatment rather than waste your life feeling hopeless and/or afraid and trying to put on a 'brave face.'

My own GP favours talking therapies (that include elements of Mindfulness and CBT) over prescribing SSRIs. The latter may be prescribed as a mid-term solution while a patient is waiting to undergo therapy. I suspect that most GPs reason in this way and it is often the patient who is looking for quick fixes. The pharmaceutical companies simply meet the demand.
 
Mull,

Sorry to hear about your troubles and hope you find a way to progress without recourse to medications. I always think that Diazepam still leaves people feeling down and depressed, they just don't give a **** that they are :)

As I said, tranquillizers, including Benzodiazepines like Diazepam, are very different animals to Antidepressants.. And although Anxiety and Depression often go hand in hand, they don't always. I do not consider myself to be depressed at present, but I am unbelievably anxious about certain things. I don't understand it myself. Suffice to say that as with depression, anxiety as a 'condition' represents an extreme or abnormal response to routine and normal challenges.

I'd agree that over use of Diazepam is both self defeating and somewhat soporific. That's not how I use it.

I am fully aware of the dangers of addiction with Diazepam. I have used it very intermittently and in minimal doses for years, on and off. I've discussed it with Doc's, quite openly. Despite my current issues, in the last couple of months I have taken precisely 2. 5 Mg of Diazepam, in two doses of 1.25 mg (approx :) ) separated by weeks of time and achieved by breaking a single 5mg tablet into four quarters. It's all I use and then only when things are way beyond anything I can control with my own thought processes.

After I had been through all sorts of therapy etc., some 20 years ago, I was pretty much OK. I had no Diazepam available.

All was well until one day and completely out of the blue, as I walked into a meeting at the (then) NALGO HQ in Euston Road, I was hit with the mother of all panic attacks.

At this point, for those who have never experienced it, it might be worth my giving some description of how a panic/anxiety attack feels.. at least to me.

You are (usually quite suddenly) hit with a feeling of intense dread, or fear. All sorts of physical things like sweating, shaking, pallor, even a sudden and dramatic loosening of the bowels can go with it. The worst thing in the world is about to happen, but you don't know what it is, there is sometimes a focus, as with my worries about my daughter last night, but often it is just a 'nameless' fear. The mechanism seems to be pretty well understood. For some reason you get an excess of Adrenalin, which, if not used up in a classic 'flight or fight' response, apparently creates the symptoms.

So, logically, all you ought to need is a good run, or a good scrap and you'll be OK. Sadly it doesn't seem to work like that, at least in the short term, though I'd acknowledge that longer term, exercise and 'conscious' relaxation help a lot. Also of course, in modern society, you can't always excuse yourself from a meeting etc., while you go off for a therapeutic jog.

How I got through the meeting is beyond me, I can't remember anything about it. Mid afternoon the meeting ended and I headed back to Euston Station and got my train back to Wigan. A woman sitting opposite insisted on chatting all the way home, which was tiresome at first but I realised that she was at least distracting me from the worst of the horrors. Once home I had no option but to drive myself to the local A&E Dept., which was mercifully empty. The receptionist asked what I wanted and I could literally only stutter out the word 'panic'.

She was superb and ushered me quickly into a side room and told me to try to relax and that I wouldn't be alone for more than a minute or so. True enough, a Doc appeared within a minute or so and asked me what I thought was happening. At this point I fell completely apart and sobbed my way through some sort of explanation. This in itself was a sort of relief and the worst of the panic began to subside. Doc asked me what I wanted him to do for me and I told him I wanted him to help me to feel better.

After further discussion we agreed that the then current and somewhat hysterical backlash against tranquillizer use was being taken too far. He got me a couple of tabs of Diazepam and pretty much instructed me to go to my Doc next morning and demand more. Which I did.

That was all over 20 years ago and I've been pretty much fine since until recently.

I think a lot of people really need someone rather than something to help them through difficult times and to put them on the road to recovery. Hoping your appointment provides that.

I'm in broad agreement with that, but I do firmly believe that the some chemical support can be helpful if properly and intelligently used, especially early in the treatment.

As the article I linked to is long and many probably haven't read it, I'll quote from it if I may to give you and others an idea of what some professionals are saying about anti depressants.

I've read enough of the article to get the jist of the argument. It's pretty closely argued and I really don't have a view eitherway. I choose not to use antidepressants myself.

It's interesting in my view and important. We all too readily accept the diagnosis of supposed mental health professionals when the evidence to support their proposed treatments is sketchy at best. There is little doubt that a large number of people are unhappy in modern society. The question for me is whether this is a symptom of illness or of society.


Not sure what you mean by 'supposed mental health profesionals'. Psychiatrists train as Doctors of Medicine before specialising. Clinical Psychologists start with a degree approved by the BPS before embarking on lengthy training and experience before qualifying. there are admittedly a lot of other therapists about, but it seems to me that the bulk of NHS therapy provision (As opposed to chemical thrapies) is rooted in what is proven to work.

Bit of a crux comment there in bold. There is a world of difference between being 'unhappy', and being either depressed, anxious, or both. As an example, being robbed of my income and employment by politicians with zero understanding of what I did made me unhappy. It didn't make me anxious or depressed.

I have to say that I sense in your posts a continuing reluctance to just accept that conditions such as depression and anxiety states really exist beyond what might be considered 'normal' reactions to life's challenges.

Finally, I think that lumping anxiety and depression automatically under the heading of 'Mental Illness' isn't especially helpful either. When I first joined a CBT therapy group 20+ years ago one of the first things the therapist said was: 'None of you is mentaly ill. You all simply have problems which are not yet able to overcome.' He went on to say that in his view, real mental illness was things like Schizophrenia, Personality Disorders etc.

Mull

P.S. This appeared today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30236927
 
As I said, tranquillizers, including Benzodiazepines like Diazepam, are very different animals to Antidepressants.. And although Anxiety and Depression often go hand in hand, they don't always. I do not consider myself to be depressed at present, but I am unbelievably anxious about certain things. I don't understand it myself. Suffice to say that as with depression, anxiety as a 'condition' represents an extreme or abnormal response to routine and normal challenges.

I'd agree that over use of Diazepam is both self defeating and somewhat soporific. That's not how I use it.

I am fully aware of the dangers of addiction with Diazepam. I have used it very intermittently and in minimal doses for years, on and off. I've discussed it with Doc's, quite openly. Despite my current issues, in the last couple of months I have taken precisely 2. 5 Mg of Diazepam, in two doses of 1.25 mg (approx :) ) separated by weeks of time and achieved by breaking a single 5mg tablet into four quarters. It's all I use and then only when things are way beyond anything I can control with my own thought processes.

After I had been through all sorts of therapy etc., some 20 years ago, I was pretty much OK. I had no Diazepam available.

All was well until one day and completely out of the blue, as I walked into a meeting at the (then) NALGO HQ in Euston Road, I was hit with the mother of all panic attacks.

At this point, for those who have never experienced it, it might be worth my giving some description of how a panic/anxiety attack feels.. at least to me.

You are (usually quite suddenly) hit with a feeling of intense dread, or fear. All sorts of physical things like sweating, shaking, pallor, even a sudden and dramatic loosening of the bowels can go with it. The worst thing in the world is about to happen, but you don't know what it is, there is sometimes a focus, as with my worries about my daughter last night, but often it is just a 'nameless' fear. The mechanism seems to be pretty well understood. For some reason you get an excess of Adrenalin, which, if not used up in a classic 'flight or fight' response, apparently creates the symptoms.

So, logically, all you ought to need is a good run, or a good scrap and you'll be OK. Sadly it doesn't seem to work like that, at least in the short term, though I'd acknowledge that longer term, exercise and 'conscious' relaxation help a lot. Also of course, in modern society, you can't always excuse yourself from a meeting etc., while you go off for a therapeutic jog.

How I got through the meeting is beyond me, I can't remember anything about it. Mid afternoon the meeting ended and I headed back to Euston Station and got my train back to Wigan. A woman sitting opposite insisted on chatting all the way home, which was tiresome at first but I realised that she was at least distracting me from the worst of the horrors. Once home I had no option but to drive myself to the local A&E Dept., which was mercifully empty. The receptionist asked what I wanted and I could literally only stutter out the word 'panic'.

She was superb and ushered me quickly into a side room and told me to try to relax and that I wouldn't be alone for more than a minute or so. True enough, a Doc appeared within a minute or so and asked me what I thought was happening. At this point I fell completely apart and sobbed my way through some sort of explanation. This in itself was a sort of relief and the worst of the panic began to subside. Doc asked me what I wanted him to do for me and I told him I wanted him to help me to feel better.

After further discussion we agreed that the then current and somewhat hysterical backlash against tranquillizer use was being taken too far. He got me a couple of tabs of Diazepam and pretty much instructed me to go to my Doc next morning and demand more. Which I did.

That was all over 20 years ago and I've been pretty much fine since until recently.



I'm in broad agreement with that, but I do firmly believe that the some chemical support can be helpful if properly and intelligently used, especially early in the treatment.



I've read enough of the article to get the jist of the argument. It's pretty closely argued and I really don't have a view eitherway. I choose not to use antidepressants myself.




Not sure what you mean by 'supposed mental health profesionals'. Psychiatrists train as Doctors of Medicine before specialising. Clinical Psychologists start with a degree approved by the BPS before embarking on lengthy training and experience before qualifying. there are admittedly a lot of other therapists about, but it seems to me that the bulk of NHS therapy provision (As opposed to chemical thrapies) is rooted in what is proven to work.

Bit of a crux comment there in bold. There is a world of difference between being 'unhappy', and being either depressed, anxious, or both. As an example, being robbed of my income and employment by politicians with zero understanding of what I did made me unhappy. It didn't make me anxious or depressed.

I have to say that I sense in your posts a continuing reluctance to just accept that conditions such as depression and anxiety states really exist beyond what might be considered 'normal' reactions to life's challenges.

Finally, I think that lumping anxiety and depression automatically under the heading of 'Mental Illness' isn't especially helpful either. When I first joined a CBT therapy group 20+ years ago one of the first things the therapist said was: 'None of you is mentaly ill. You all simply have problems which are not yet able to overcome.' He went on to say that in his view, real mental illness was things like Schizophrenia, Personality Disorders etc.

Mull

I think the lumping together helps with the de-stigmatisation process, especially when you realise how common it is. That said, there is a world of difference between chemical or hormonal imbalances that are simply reactions to unhealthy thought processes and primary chemical imbalances associated with schizophrenia, bi-polar or other personality disorders. Just like with physical illness, some mental illnesses can be harmful to others around a given sufferer, others not in the slightest.

Depression and anxiety are loosely linked. Questionnaires for both back in 2011 indicated that my score was raised somewhat for the former but almost off the scale for the latter.
 
Perhaps there are more diagnosis for depression or mental illness now because we have become more accepting/understanding of these issues as a society now. I think if people were honest we'd see a large % have suffered from depression during their lives. I certainly know I have following a rather nasty car accident where a woman walked in front of my car on the A34 and came through the windscreen in two pieces. That caused me to have issues with nightmares, rage attacks and depression. A good friend of mine committed suicide with his rifle after we returned from Bosnia because of the mass graves we saw there, even back in the 90's the Army viewed PTSD or depression as a weakness or 'just in the mind' as Merlin puts it.

The brain is an organ like any other and just because depression doesn't manifest like cirrhosis or others doesn't mean it isn't an illness.

I do get annoyed when I see comments like Merlins but then again I had the same attitude 20 years ago, walk a mile in my shoes and all that.

I'm off now to put my underpants on my head and pencils up my nose.
 
I obviously read about a bit before posting. You haven't made any attempt to answer my question. Is the 'MBCT' described in the paper you chose the same as the 'Mindfulness' you mean?



Still looks like tosh. Or a Mick P approach with a process and a fancy name.



Coincidentally Amazon sent me a link to http://local.amazon.co.uk/Northampton/B00NVFHTZ0 this morning. Looks like an excellent value cure for depression.



Paul
I believe Mark Williams answers your question in the video I linked to.
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
Perhaps there are more diagnosis for depression or mental illness now because we have become more accepting/understanding of these issues as a society now. I think if people were honest we'd see a large % have suffered from depression during their lives. I certainly know I have following a rather nasty car accident where a woman walked in front of my car on the A34 and came through the windscreen in two pieces. That caused me to have issues with nightmares, rage attacks and depression. A good friend of mine committed suicide with his rifle after we returned from Bosnia because of the mass graves we saw there, even back in the 90's the Army viewed PTSD or depression as a weakness or 'just in the mind' as Merlin puts it.

The brain is an organ like any other and just because depression doesn't manifest like cirrhosis or others doesn't mean it isn't an illness.

I do get annoyed when I see comments like Merlins but then again I had the same attitude 20 years ago, walk a mile in my shoes and all that.

I'm off now to put my underpants on my head and pencils up my nose.

More medical research than a while ago, more public exposure via celebrities in media, more people admitting / recognising and willing to talk about their friends & family with problems. Twenty to thirty years ago cancer was something that happened to others, something not often referred to in polite society - how times have changed and changed for the better. Still a few taboos like prostate cancer but on the whole things can only get better.
 
I believe Mark Williams answers your question in the video I linked to.
He uses words without defining them. So I cannot follow him. And he goes really slowly, so I gave up after 10 minutes. Perhaps meditation has messed with his thought processes.

So perhaps as an advocate you could define 'Mindfulness' so that it can be discussed? Is the course Amazon tried to sell me this morning the right 'Mindfulness'?

Paul
 


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