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Inner groove distortion

I read the difference that the stylus shape makes on inner grooves is very small though.

The AT440ml seems to keep popping when googling inner groove distortion as a good solution.

It's not small at all to my ears, more like the difference between acceptable and unacceptable! The AT440ML has a nice fancy micro-line tip, hence it's reputation.
 
I've never seen it as an either / or thing myself, I just keep the records I want to keep and ditch the ones I don't! I run vinyl, CD, have a very large ripped library and also use Spotify etc. Why limit oneself to a single format? There's no advantage in doing so whatsoever.
 
Tracking and tracing are very different things, and end of side distortion is a tracing issue. Toward the end of the record the groove modulations inevitably become smaller and tighter and elliptical styli gradually start to lose contact to some (audible) degree as they are simply too wide to accurately trace the groove. It's like trying to get a square peg into a round hole. It just doesn't fit properly!

Of course Tony, but trace distortion is also a function of geometry, and offset angle. Careful set-up can minimise distortion but never eliminate it, even when using fine line stylii patterns. Same hymn sheet I think.
 
^^This. Get a cartridge with a decent fine-line or shibata tip, Ortofon 540/II, 2M Bronze or Black, AT 150MLX, Goldring 1042 etc. There is no way I'd ever go back to a basic elliptical or worse conical tip now, and the difference is largely at end of side - a lot of cartridges sound good at start of side, only a few, the ones with the fancy tips, keep it up until the very end.

He can get after-market styluses with better tips for the AT-95 too if he otherwise thinks the cartridge is just what he needs. I have no personal experience with them.

If you read http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/LP3/aroundthebend.html it says:

"Overall, the above tells us that if we wish to be able to play real-world LPs without mistracking we really need a tip mass of around half a milligram or less, and a minor radius of curvature (or equivalent) of around 3-4 microns or less."

which in practice means something like a Microridge tip I think?

Or use a tangential tonearm.
 
I've no idea what the budget is, but my suggestion would be something like an Ortofon 540/II which can be had fairly cheaply (e.g. here) as it's now discontinued. It's a great cart, the predecessor to the 2M Black and certainly in the same league performance wise. More significantly it's a lightweight high-compliance cartridge, so will be a perfect match to the low-mass Hadcock 228 arm on the OP's Lenco. The standard AT95 is far too low compliance to match that arm well, though I've no idea if the after market styli alter this. To be honest I suspect this is part of the issue here - a Hadcock / AT95 is just not a good arm / cart combo on paper so I doubt it would sound that good in practice.
 
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Whilst the AT95E might not match his arm, I don't agree that it is inherently prone to inner groove distortion. I used one for many years on Linn arms and didn't have such problems.
 
Whilst the AT95E might not match his arm, I don't agree that it is inherently prone to inner groove distortion. I used one for many years on Linn arms and didn't have such problems.

I used 1 for 8 months , i didnt know any better . I still have it and I would not now use it ever again. This is in comparision to several low output moving coils from £150 to £600 and a ortofon mc10 i got second hand for £10.

listen to female vocals at the end of a side and oh dear.
 
Apple TV1 running crystalbuntu/XBMC in my case. Pretty good and very convenient. I use it when I can't the bothered doing the vinyl ritual.



Buy a NAS connect it to a wireless router connect your streamer to the router, both by CAT 5 ethernet. Use your tablet or phone to control it all. Router & NAS in my study, DS streamer in lounge with other kit.

Takes about 40, minutes to set up from scratch. Rock solid since April 2008.

Chris
 
I used 1 for 8 months , i didnt know any better . I still have it and I would not now use it ever again. This is in comparision to several low output moving coils from £150 to £600 and a ortofon mc10 i got second hand for £10.

listen to female vocals at the end of a side and oh dear.

Yes I've got much better MC cartridges now too. They track superbly. So did the AT95E. Set up!
 
Not really, Martin. If you enjoy the kit aspect of the hobby, t/ts are fun & can be made to sound v. good. But they & the software that they use (LPs) are high maintenance & easily damaged.

As I got older, the kit aspect annoyed me more & more. Especially the whole vinyl thing. I found myself in an almost constant state of FUD about whether everything was optimum. Not conducive to getting down & boogying:)

I now essentially have 2 bits of kit, neither of which I ever have to touch except to power on or off. And it never goes out of adjustment, never has to have trackin weight, bias, VTA, "bounce" or any of the other things checked. I tap a screen a few times & the track or LP of my choice starts playing. Instantly. If it sounds different or worse, it's in my head & a stiff malt will usually sort that out.:)

And I have my entire collection of 250,000 tracks at my fingertips.

So enjoy your t/t's & all that goes with them. I do know where you are coming from.

Chris

Again - are you sure you're on the right thread? This person is asking about a vinyl-related matter.
 
As Tony says, you must have a fine line stylus to banish IGD.
Its simple physics - the width of the scanning face of the stylus reaches a point where it's wider than the undulation stamped into the groove. No amount of tweaking with setup will change this or make it fit.

A diamond stylus has two scanning radii - minor and major.
The minor radius sits across the groove and is largely responsible for clean HF tracing.
It needs to be <=5um across or IGD is very obvious on most records.

The AT440MLa has a MicroLine stylus with a very fine 3um minor radius. It tracks and traces like a train on the hottest records and is the entry point to great tracing at £175.
The Denon DL110 also does well here, because not unsurprisingly it has a special elliptical profile - effectively a short line - and it's radius is 5um.

So either upgrade the AT95 or perhaps try a fancy 3rd party stylus on it.
If it were me I'd just get a 440 which apart from world class tracking/tracing is also a very nice cartridge at a very reasonable cost.
 
"Faff" is really a matter of subjective opinion. Once properly set up, and once records are cleaned, there's hardly any "faffing" about needed. Just spin an LP up, sit back and enjoy. Advantages include never having to worry if your system crashes, having all the album information at your fingertips (unlike digital) without delving into sub menus and some people enjoy the tactile nature and appreciate the engineering involved. Coloured sounding or not, there's no denying that one can "tune" a vinyl system to one's own tastes and enjoy many albums perhaps unavailable digitally without recording and ripping them. I understand why many people prefer the convenience of digital and why it suits some lifestyles, but I actually enjoy all the "faffing" with vinyl. It remains an extraordinary testament to an enduring engineering solution which can and does bring huge musical satisfaction to millions of people, long may it continue! Nothing in life is perfect, and accepting vinyl's limitations allows retention of large libraries of music without the faffing about having to rip them all ;)
 
"Faff" is really a matter of subjective opinion. Once properly set up, and once records are cleaned, there's hardly any "faffing" about needed. Just spin an LP up, sit back and enjoy. Advantages include never having to worry if your system crashes, having all the album information at your fingertips (unlike digital) without delving into sub menus and some people enjoy the tactile nature and appreciate the engineering involved. Coloured sounding or not, there's no denying that one can "tune" a vinyl system to one's own tastes and enjoy many albums perhaps unavailable digitally without recording and ripping them. I understand why many people prefer the convenience of digital and why it suits some lifestyles, but I actually enjoy all the "faffing" with vinyl. It remains an extraordinary testament to an enduring engineering solution which can and does bring huge musical satisfaction to millions of people, long may it continue! Nothing in life is perfect, and accepting vinyl's limitations allows retention of large libraries of music without the faffing about having to rip them all ;)

As I stated in a post earlier, I know exactly where you are coming from. Been there, done that. It all became to ritualistic & faffy. For me, it got in the way of the music, basically.

Just one minor rebuttal, if I may.

I control my DS with a tablet. That means I can have access to far more artist/album information than is available on most LP covers in seconds.

Chris
 
"Faff" is really a matter of subjective opinion. Once properly set up, and once records are cleaned, there's hardly any "faffing" about needed. Just spin an LP up, sit back and enjoy. Advantages include never having to worry if your system crashes, having all the album information at your fingertips (unlike digital) without delving into sub menus and some people enjoy the tactile nature and appreciate the engineering involved.

There's also the aspect of owning the real genuine historical artefact rather than a valueless virtual facsimile. A real piece of art. This is certainly a big factor for me and I'll happily admit I'm a 'collector'. I love the whole buying / selling / investment aspect of it all, it's always been something I've been good at and it has provided a secondary income stream for much of my life (I started trading records when I was still at school). Then there's the kit - I love being able to take a mint original Impulse jazz title, a wide-band deep-groove SXL or whatever and place it on my 1959 Garrard 301, it's just the right place to spin such a thing, and yes, it sounds superb as music does when the master tapes are still fresh and the cut reflects the artist's initial intent. Sure, it's a ritual, but what's wrong with that? It's fun!

These days I view vinyl as a subset of my music in the home, and not necessarily the primary one, e.g. if a title just isn't that great a vinyl cut, or if the pressing I seek is now so insanely collectable and valuable I'm unlikely to ever stumble across it at a price I'd pay then I'll happily play / rip the CD (though I'll choose my mastering very carefully). There is no mutual exclusivity here, all these formats happily coexist and supplement one another. I can't understand the 'reformed smoker' attitude of some folk, it perhaps has a hint of denial to it! I'm certain I'll have some vinyl as long as I live. Maybe much less than I have now, but I could happily justify just keeping my very favourite 50-100 records later in life when time comes to downsize to retirement accommodation or whatever and having everything else stored digitally (though I suspect it would end more like 1000 or so...).
 
Would people throw out treasured family photographs because they are a little faded, or just showing the effects of ageing?

Probably not.
Treat vinyl in the same way. Look after it best you can and enjoy it. For most people their vinyl collections form a part of their life story. Dumping it for some digital file on a hard drive is wrong on so many levels.
 
There's also the aspect of owning the real genuine historical artefact rather than a valueless virtual facsimile. A real piece of art. This is certainly a big factor for me and I'll happily admit I'm a 'collector'. I love the whole buying / selling / investment aspect of it all, it's always been something I've been good at and it has provided a secondary income stream for much of my life (I started trading records when I was still at school). Then there's the kit - I love being able to take a mint original Impulse jazz title, a wide-band deep-groove SXL or whatever and place it on my 1959 Garrard 301, it's just the right place to spin such a thing, and yes, it sounds superb as music does when the master tapes are still fresh and the cut reflects the artist's initial intent. Sure, it's a ritual, but what's wrong with that? It's fun!

These days I view vinyl as a subset of my music in the home, and not necessarily the primary one, e.g. if a title just isn't that great a vinyl cut, or if the pressing I seek is now so insanely collectable and valuable I'm unlikely to ever stumble across it at a price I'd pay then I'll happily play / rip the CD (though I'll choose my mastering very carefully). There is no mutual exclusivity here, all these formats happily coexist and supplement one another. I can't understand the 'reformed smoker' attitude of some folk, it perhaps has a hint of denial to it! I'm certain I'll have some vinyl as long as I live. Maybe much less than I have now, but I could happily justify just keeping my very favourite 50-100 records later in life when time comes to downsize to retirement accommodation or whatever and having everything else stored digitally (though I suspect it would end more like 1000 or so...).

I agree with all of that, apart from the valueless facsimile bit. For me, the artefact bit is obviously less important than it is for you. As long as I have the music, I'm mostly happy.

Having said that, there are some records I will always keep (An original American Safe As Milk on the Buddha label, an original VU with Nico with an UNPEELED banana cover, loads more....), but I'll keep them purely as artifacts, not to play. For me, that part of their function has been usurped.

Chris
 
Would people throw out treasured family photographs because they are a little faded, or just showing the effects of ageing?

Probably not.
Treat vinyl in the same way. Look after it best you can and enjoy it. For most people their vinyl collections form a part of their life story. Dumping it for some digital file on a hard drive is wrong on so many levels.

I'd digitise them & store them on a HDD, Robert.

I'm in the process of essentially giving away most of my LPs. Some I am keeping, but really, I don't know why:). Pure sentimentality, mostly.

As long as I have the music, the associations with my life story are fully intact.

Different strokes, eh?

Chris
 


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