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Flatpopely NAIM based ABX test - 24th August

Robert said:
Whatever the take, we can be clear that ABX clearly works, doesn't mask differences, doesn't induce hypertension or terror into the participants and that everybody made it to other side in one piece ;)
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Personally I've never subscribed to that and I'm not convinced anyone seriously does, though of course, doing the rigged Harbeth challenge with its requirement for 100 switches is a different matter altogether.

Bottom line is no matter how you want to spin it this test did not prove ABX is better than sighted or long term listening to evaluate equipment. What it clearly did was prove you wrong in your claim that all competently designed amplifiers used within their designed parameters sound the same, and that's the main thing to be taken from the comparison.

This wasn't a test of the ABX method, it was a test of the validity of your claims regarding amplifiers.
 
Brian said:
Personally I've never subscribed to that and I'm not convinced anyone seriously does, though of course, doing the rigged Harbeth challenge with its requirement for 100 switches is a different matter altogether.

Bottom line is no matter how you want to spin it this test did not prove ABX is better than sighted or long term listening to evaluate equipment. What it clearly did was prove you wrong in your claim that all competently designed amplifiers used within their designed parameters sound the same, and that's the main thing to be taken from the comparison.

This wasn't a test of the ABX method, it was a test of the validity of your claims regarding amplifiers.
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So which is it?
 
A lot of hard work, but, sadly, I can't see that is demonstrated anything beyond the fact that two amplifiers can sound different; trouble is, who would disagree with that? 'Objectivists' will simply say that we don't know whether either amp was working within its design parameters...not least because one was very old, and the other modded.
For me, what comes out of this is the sheer difficulty of designing and staging a valid abx test. No wonder they are rare.....
 
maxflinn said:
Did the test prove anything or not?
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Post #421 refers but I'll try to spell it out.

That it proved something, eg those people claiming all amps sound the same are wrong, does not mean it proved the ABX test method is better than sighted tests or long term listening tests to evaluate equipment.
 
paskinn said:
A lot of hard work, but, sadly, I can't see that is demonstrated anything beyond the fact
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It demonstrated that two different amplifiers sound different. A further step would be to test one of the ubiquitous claims that two amplifiers that have the same output sound different. But that's a test of faith so is unlikely to happen, witness the Harbeth challenge...

Paul
 
Brian said:
Post #421 refers but I'll try to spell it out.

That it proved something, eg those people claiming all amps sound the same are wrong, does not mean it proved the ABX test method is better than sighted tests or long term listening tests to evaluate equipment.
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So if a similar test was carried out on two DACs that people claim sound the same, for example, and no differences were found, they'd be proved right?
 
Paul R said:
It demonstrated that two different amplifiers sound different. A further step would be to test one of the ubiquitous claims that two amplifiers that have the same output sound different. But that's a test of faith so is unlikely to happen, witness the Harbeth challenge...

Paul
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...and the requirement to compare amplifiers by listening to 100 short snips of music. :D
 
maxflinn said:
So if a similar test was carried out on two DACs that people claim sound the same, for example, and no differences were found, they'd be proved right?
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Eh? Proved right about what? That two dacs sound the same? What are you on about?

As it happens I've heard at least 4 dacs that sound the same, compared sighted over long term listening with one costing 6x another one, if some are to be believed you'd think I would have found the pricey one a lot better, given I could see it and all that, eh?

There have been repeated claims this test has proven ABX testing is the dogs gonads but it has proven nothing of the sort, what it has proven is that all amplifiers do not sound the same because there are at least 2 that sound different. I have seen no evidence from this test that proves ABX is better than sighted comparisons and/or long term listening. If it is there feel free to point it out.
 
Paul R said:
It demonstrated that two different amplifiers sound different. A further step would be to test one of the ubiquitous claims that two amplifiers that have the same output sound different. But that's a test of faith so is unlikely to happen, witness the Harbeth challenge...

Paul
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With respect, and not wishing to get sucked into some interminable debate, of course two amps can sound different. No-one has ever claimed otherwise. Certainly not Peter walker et al.
 
Brian said:
Eh? Proved right about what? That two dacs sound the same? What are you on about?

As it happens I've heard at least 4 dacs that sound the same, compared sighted over long term listening with one costing 6x another one, if some are to be believed you'd think I would have found the pricey one a lot better, given I could see it and all that, eh?

There have been repeated claims this test has proven ABX testing is the dogs gonads but it has proven nothing of the sort, what it has proven is that all amplifiers do not sound the same because there are at least 2 that sound different. I have seen no evidence from this test that proves ABX is better than sighted comparisons and/or long term listening. If it is there feel free to point it out.
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Brian, you're questioning the validity of ABX testing as a means of proof while at the same time claiming that it has in this case proven something.

Anyway, never mind.
 
Paul R said:
It demonstrated that two different amplifiers sound different. A further step would be to test one of the ubiquitous claims that two amplifiers that have the same output sound different. But that's a test of faith so is unlikely to happen, witness the Harbeth challenge...
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I'd love to test that one out blind and at different ends of the price scale e.g. for 50 watts say Krell KSA 50 vs. Quad 306, something like that.
 
The issue is all the amps that sound the same, but which a significant proportion of so-called 'subjectivists' claim sound different when they can see which one they are listening to.

I assume you aren't in that camp.

Paul
 
Tony L said:
I'd love to test that one out blind and at different ends of the price scale e.g. for 50 watts say Krell KSA 50 vs. Quad 306, something like that.
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It would be fascinating.

A standard MDAC against Steven's would be even more fascinating. To read about anyway. Power amps, especially Quads and Krells, are such interesting artifacts with history, topology and myth in abundance.

Paul
 
paskinn said:
With respect, and not wishing to get sucked into some interminable debate, of course two amps can sound different. No-one has ever claimed otherwise. Certainly not Peter walker et al.
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Quite, but some people like to play games with history.
 
There is discussion of trying it agin, this time replacing Nait with Krell.

I'm up for that.
 
Me too - back allowing :) simon and I are in a position to compare Krell KSA100's with NAP135's
 
This is ridiculous.

What the test shows is that the Nait sounds different to the comparator. FACT

Why?

No idea.

All the claptrap and vitriol is completely pointless.

Grow up boys.

Ian
 
Robert said:
It's a long thread so you'll need to scan it, but for starters we need +/- 2db response limits and 0.3% THD limits, plus the output impedance gap is unusually wide for SS amplifiers as a quarter Ohm. Differences of this magnitude aren't found between say Audiolab and Cyrus amps, Arcam and Linn, Marantz and Pioneer, Sony and Quad.... and so on.
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No, I'm asking what are the specific measured differences between the two amps that were in the test?
 
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