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TECHNICS SL1200/1210. HYPE OR FACT?

I'd at least have to see reduced rumble for a bearing upgrade. reduced wow and flutter from a heavier platter kit, and then measure the rumble again, and I'd expect to see wow and flutter for any power supply upgrade.

Any of these are amazingly easy to do, the fact they have not been supplied tells me that the designers of the mods either cant (worrying) or wont (even more so) supply the results- basically the mods are suck it and see despite the grand claims. (I'll stick with my current deck...)
 
I think your'e missing the point of some of these upgrades ! Which have more to do with improving sound quality than improving stats !

I think the OEM psu is pretty decent and just needs to be removed into a separate case for an instant improvement , the Vantage audio way of improving this deck is based on improving the OEM component parts of the TT , and i think it works , its also much cheaper than any other vendor ! I also need to say that Richard has been there and got the T-shirt with over engineered platter's and bearings and feels the best way to improve the Techy is to just refine what's already there!

This may come as a surprise to some but not to others i suspect , i already have his bearing mod , next up is the platter mod .

Very pleased with the Vantage service and sound advice.
 
naimnut said:
I don't find my deck to have any distracting audible wow. I do have more records than I'd like that are not pressed perfectly on-center. But my deck seems rock solid, even with a belt that's 20 years old.

Aren't you using an Ekos on your SL1200? I greatly appreciate the detail and overall sound provided by the LP12 and would hate to lose it by going to the Technics. I would have thought that, with an Ekos, the Technics would be close to par with the Linn. Are my expectations too high?
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In stock form the Teccie has a certain greyness to the sound that an LP12, with the right bits wont have. I expect that the standard bearing on an LP12 is better than the SL1200, like wise the arm wiring and tonearm is likely to be better.

That said it depends on how you like your music and what style of music you listen to most. The prime quality of the Technics is the speed stability that gives a clean bass response, somehow this clarity extends to the midrange. Music is easier to follow.

For me, CD playback is the reference, I just cannot stand the audible wow that I heard with off centre records on my prior decks, which the technics goes a long way to mitigate. I also don't like the drop off in audio quality from the inner grooves of a record. My technics has a Kabusa supply and an SMEIV, but I haven't taken the orignal transformer out of the deck. I intend to "tune" my technics in the autumn.
 
Chris, I'm not missing the point. If there are improvements in the sound there are improvements in measurement. Take the Timestep psu for example, with all Dave's measuring gear he can't even provide a simple speed stability measurement- pull the other one.
 
i wish he would as he has since become a 'technics expert' !!!
all i want to see is some improvements on an already near state of the art w&f and rumble reading from the basic technics.
so far and on 5 or 6 forums......nothing.....it's a shame.
 
sq225917 said:
Chris, I'm not missing the point. If there are improvements in the sound there are improvements in measurement. Take the Timestep psu for example, with all Dave's measuring gear he can't even provide a simple speed stability measurement- pull the other one.
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It depends who you think the real expert is though doesn't it ;) All that testing gear ? Looks good on the site page eh :rolleyes:
 
sq225917 said:
Chris, I'm not missing the point. If there are improvements in the sound there are improvements in measurement. Take the Timestep psu for example, with all Dave's measuring gear he can't even provide a simple speed stability measurement- pull the other one.
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The point of the Timestep psu or any psu for the SL1200 has nothing to do with speed stability ! Just removing a source of interference and noise , the speed is taken care of on the main board and is set in stone .
 
The mods would have to be subjectively evaluated and measured individually to determine any sense of performance changes versus their cost. Most users do several at once with no stock table for direct comparison and the Hi-Fi review is the fully tricked out 1200. I'd be curious to evaluate the stock bearing with 3 dollar plate wax mod against the 400 dollar bearing replacement mod. Or simply separating the existing power supply from base versus using the expensive external "upgrade" power supply box. Does adding a more massive platter make the servo control function better, worse or the same? Would'nt it seem better to avoid extra mass in that case?
 
Tilters said:
The mods would have to be subjectively evaluated and measured individually to determine any sense of performance changes versus their cost. Most users do several at once with no stock table for direct comparison and the Hi-Fi review is the fully tricked out 1200. I'd be curious to evaluate the stock bearing with 3 dollar plate wax mod against the 400 dollar bearing replacement mod. Or simply separating the existing power supply from base versus using the expensive external "upgrade" power supply box. Does adding a more massive platter make the servo control function better, worse or the same? Would'nt it seem better to avoid extra mass in that case?
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Glad you asked those questions ! I've been informed that the motor contol board is optimised and set to be used with the stock platter + or - to a certain mass , fit a much higher mass platter and you need change the pll , fitting a larger psu will make no difference , then again the motor is optimal for the 1200 platter ! You may as well buy an SP 10 or L0 7D ?
 
My entirely subjective experience is that a significant advantage accrues by just removing the power supply from inside the deck. It gets bigger, clearer and more detailed. I have no idea why. I can't say that my timestep PSU deck sounds noticeably better than a deck which just has the power supply in an external box. I can say that removing the power supply to an external box is quite audible and worthwhile. It is also very very cheap.

I have an expensive replacement bearing in one of my decks, and I can't for sure say that it's better than the stock one.

I did not find a Rega arm significantly better than the stock arm, but an Ekos 2 definitely is more refined and revealing.

The nice thing about these decks is that it's quick and easy to d.i.y. until you are satisfied. I have four of them in the house at the moment. Soon I'm going to get my Sondek back, and then I'll be able to compare Technics Ekos2 against Sondek Ekos2 directly at home. Of course it'll still just be my opinion, but it will be based on careful and leisurely comparison, and I'll share it for what it's worth.
 
Sonddek, you nicely sum up my expectations. Removing the PSU from right under the poorly shielded platter can only help reduce noise picked up by the cartridge, it can't make things worse.

Re high mass plater upgrades, I doubt they'll provide anything but more bearing noise and tax the PLL.
 
Your mod of Taking the transformer out and what I did with using the bearing plate wax are just about free mods (but not totally risk free) I'd consider doing it, Does taking it out mean resodering stuff? Sounds like the largest difference you got was using the Linn arm, the major difference of the fully tricked out 1200 in hi fi world is probably due to the SME arm. The youtube videos of the 1200 tutorials I've seen show that the transformer drops in from top, so you could'nt just sit it underneath, it has to come out from the top right?
 
I'm not sure it is quite so easy to measure changes/reductions in rumble at very low levels. One issue is getting a test record that is quiet enough. I was reading yesterday about a particular Denon test disc made with a special cutter that was rigid so that it couldn't impart any of its own electronically derived noise during the cutting process. Then of course the drive mechanism of cutting lathe has to be silent in operation.

Having heard a comparison between two bearing arrangements quite recently (via needledrop) which were audibly quite different I'd like to see the measurements that showed the clear subjective improvement in terms of numbers. I suspect it might be difficult to measure though.
 
obelisk said:
No. Years of marketing have obviously swayed me towards a well engineered and award winning Brit arm. I remember bunging out Japanese direct drives to go down the hi fi route. Im more than a bit biased.

Trying to be open minded :) the technics arm seems solidly engineered to cope with heavy dj hammering.

I notice the technics decks are fairly pricey 2nd hand and have all the parts available.

I still feel better about buying a Systemdeck, Revolver, Thorens or Heybrook.
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i just got myself a one year old technics mk5 in silver for £144.95 from a cash convertors....no manual or box though.
 
i love em i have 4 for dj-ing and 3 at home - one lives in my studio, one in our dining room near one of my record racks and one is in the cupboard awaiting fettlin' (the new used silver one)....
they really are great decks but so is my pt and my strathclyde and even the beaten up old lp12 (not working at the mo' dead caps!!!)
 
obelisk said:
No. Years of marketing have obviously swayed me towards a well engineered and award winning Brit arm. I remember bunging out Japanese direct drives to go down the hi fi route. Im more than a bit biased.

Trying to be open minded :) the technics arm seems solidly engineered to cope with heavy dj hammering.

I notice the technics decks are fairly pricey 2nd hand and have all the parts available.

I still feel better about buying a Systemdeck, Revolver, Thorens or Heybrook.
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Actually there are some problems to think about with the stock arm. One is that the VTA adjustment mechanism doesn't go low enough for some cartridges. Headshell spacers or mats aren't an ideal solution to that problem. Secondly, there is the removable headshell, which despite reassurances from fans, I don't really trust. It's actually quite hard to screw on a headshell and keep correct azimuth. Should you retain the rubber ring or discard it? You want to screw tight obviously, but how good is that for the arm's bearings? I don't know. The contacts? The VTA mechanism isn't entirely rigid either. Maybe that's OK. Again, who knows? It would be fun to try a well-tempered arm on this deck.

One thing is for sure though, once you disassemble the Technics and its arm you wonder why the hell all those belt decks (Systemdek, Thorens, Heybrook) cost more than 200 quid. The engineering in the Technics makes those decks look like something from the dark ages.
 
I'm not a DJ but the thought occurred to me, what makes "audiophiles" think DJ's don't want their stuff to sound right? What is laughable about the 1200's artistic use in the DJ and hip hop communities? Maybe they know something we don't. It is a humble table for this humble audiophile.
 
One thing is for sure though, once you disassemble the Technics and its arm you wonder why the hell all those belt decks (Systemdek, Thorens, Heybrook) cost more than 200 quid. The engineering in the Technics makes those decks look like something from the dark ages.
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Did you ever look at the internals of a VHS machine? Or a cheap camcorder?

It's all about volume, where it starts to become very cheap per unit to build machines to build machines.

Paul
 
Tilters said:
I'm not a DJ but the thought occurred to me, what makes "audiophiles" think DJ's don't want their stuff to sound right? What is laughable about the 1200's artistic use in the DJ and hip hop communities? Maybe they know something we don't. It is a humble table for this humble audiophile.
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I'm thinking if it can withstand 110dB bass, mounted onto a LoveParade truck with dancing people jumping up and down, and *still* sound not bad, it should be bloody good on a Naim Frame.
 
Tony L said:
Yes, but whether it's enough is anyone's guess. A headshell spacer will do the trick too, but isn't too elegant IMO, I like stuff to be right. It's a real shame Technics don't reintroduce the armless 1200 (SL-120) now there is a bit of a buzz about them in the world of audio-geekery. I'd have thought they could sell the armless version with a SME, Rega and Linn armboard in the box for more than the standard 1200 and it would cost them less to make!

Tony.
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Agreed. This point has been screaming out all the time, before our eyes. Even long ago, some manufacturers used to put out 'fixed' TT and arm combinations. And many times people would say "Like the TT , but hate the type and style of the tone arm put with it".
 
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