¿End-of-side distortion — inherent to vinyl?

[ter]

Important distinction though, from my perspective, is that if I couldn't get Pearl Jam's "Ten" (released in '91), I can't just settle for the version recorded by The Jam ten years earlier, as Weller and Co. never recorded any versions of "Jeremy" or "Evenflow" that I'm aware of. However, while I may not be able to get Tintner's 1999 release of Bruckner's 9th, I can possibly content myself with Bruno Walters' 1959 version, and still get a lot of enjoyment.

Then recorded music appreciation stopped after the advent of CD? But is not this, like going out to a paid -for dinner and saying " I will content myself with what happens to on the menu, only so long as I know how it was prepared? And doubly I remind -the actual quality of the included ingredients or what was really available to me on offer had I examined it- is something I completely dismiss"?
I would love some A/B tests done with concerned listeners. With perfect vinyl editions and some specially made CD's of the same performances with a few snap crackle and pops added : 'for vinyl authenticity'. Now THAT, would be real hilarious fun.

 

[martin clark]

The temporal resolution of cd is the number of samples per second, it has nothing to do with the number of levels per sample, it cannot define a time period smaller than that of the smallest sample duration. By it's very nature it's frequency response is limited to 1/2 the sample rate, as is its temporal accuracy.

It simply cannot play any sound for less than 1/44.100 of a second.

Not true - frequency response is not the same as temporal resolution. CD can only play back to ~20Khz, true, but the resolution of when a given sample (or waveform) happens is indeed a couple of hundred pS.

Simple graphical example to convince: Draw two close parallel lines at any angle you like - say 45degrees for simplicity - across some graph paper where the vertical scale intervals are very fine compared with the horizontal scale. You could even offset them by 1 vertical 'sample' level. Note they are much closer horizontally than the horiz scale intervals (sampling period) 'allows'

 

[ter]

What I want to paradoxically ask is :
How can strictly vinyl users appreciate and rave on about the 'artistry' of various performers on vinyl made at various times with ratty microphone / studio set ups /limited response ....and overcome all those 'leap-back in time' hurdles?......Yet cannot do so, if the same performance is ever 'bumped to CD'. Surely they can use that same set of alleged adaptive compensatory -perceptive skills they claim to have , to discern 'performer artistry' , if only by simply 'leaping forward' to CD?

 

[barrymidd]

What I want to paradoxically ask is :
How can strictly vinyl users appreciate and rave on about the 'artistry' of various performers on vinyl made at various times with ratty microphone / studio set ups /limited response ....and overcome all those 'leap-back in time' hurdles?......Yet cannot do so, if the same performance is ever 'bumped to CD'. Surely they can use that same set of alleged adaptive compensatory -perceptive skills they claim to have , to discern 'performer artistry' , if only by simply 'leaping forward' to CD?

One word - REMASTERING.

 

[Werner]

The temporal resolution of cd is the number of samples per second,

Sorry, but this is demonstrably wrong: the theoretical temporal resolution of CD is indeed as Martin stated.

It may be against intuition, but it is so. Quite a few non-audio applications rely on similar mechanisms. Cell phones, satellite navigation (not GPS, but the stuff by which spacecraft themselves know where they are), ...

 

[mmaatt]

Whatever the technical theory says about the temporal resolution of CD I've never got on with it, even good CD players sound mechanical and artificial in terms of temporal timing. My TT always seems to makes sense in terms of timing and therefore I connect with the music which is always enjoyable. For me that is the inherent superiority of the analogue replay system.

 

[ter]

Thank you - sonddek is refuting the fundamental principles of anti-skating theory - of course there is a significant change in the angle of a record's groove as it nears the centre - this is basic geometry. Give me one example of a tonearm designer who has set anti-skating to decrease as it traverses a record because it will track better.

mat

PS - Quote from Analogue productions - note last sentence:

Track 1 Anti-skating test; 315Hz amplitude sweep to +12dbu (Lateral)
Signal should remain clean in both channels up to the highest level, both audibly and as viewed on an oscilloscope. In case of distortion, increase anti-skating force or decrease anti-skate until breakup occurs equally in both channels. The left channel information is inscribed on the inner groove wall, the right channel information, on the outer groove wall. Because of the offset angle of a pivoted tonearm, a constantly varying vector force biases the arm towards the center of the record causing the stylus to lose contact with the outer (i.e. right channel) groove wall. Both linear and modulated groove velocity, tracking force, stylus profile, and vinyl composition are contributing factors. The anti skating force attempts to ameliorate this by applying an opposing similar force.
It is also accepted that the overall force vector increases as the tonearm approaches closer to the spindle or end of the record.

And from a study by James Kogen on The Anti-Skating phenomenon (1967) it was found that 'skating force will change as a function of groove radius' but 'however frictional force appears to be constant with velocity'. He also states that the skating force is dependant on the distance of the stylus tip from the spindle which of course varies as the record is played.

Exactly! I will now give a quite horrid example of inner spiral thrust. A real life case happened in a hotel. Overnight a group of pranksters got past the bottom desk and ascended to the top of a tight inner spiral staircase many floors up. One decided to 'ride the circling banister' down. Result -fatal.- by falling inwards into the central core of the stairway. Now let's look at such an macabre situation if it had any chance 'to ever impossibly succeed' -which it did not. In order to ever have any possible chance to descend 'in a central controlled position'- centralized on the railing - also..... required a continuing calculated turning corrective movement. Since this other gravitational turning force motion - was also in play, away from that of direct forward direction .
Ditto: a tone arm playing a record and being 'slowly urged' by a spiral in one direction.
Ditto: a tight-rope walker using a correcting horizontal stabilizing pole, to correct for any sideways force they sense either from themselves or the natural elements that they may encounter during some daring attempted feat.

The question that puzzles me: If a directional force is set in motion 'to a ever gathering particular speed'; rapidly gaining speed 'spiralling', the nearer the centre of a record label,....does it not also require a similar compensatory force to neutralise the force? Hence' - the need for the anti skating mechanism' to doing its job then to the maximum, does it not ?

 

[ter]

Eric,

I need a new hobby. Is much available on reel-to-reel?

Joe

I would not go there. Life is meant to be more easy. Shredding of oxides, shrinkage and print -through problems, storage problems away from magnetic forces, shortage of virgin new tape, scratched second hand pre -recorded tapes with their ' background noise floor' increased over the years, tape head alignments ....

 

[sonddek]

The temporal resolution of cd is the number of samples per second...

I've seen the light on this sq. The temporal resolution can be better than that in this respect: the timing of an object with duration greater than one sample period can be quite accurate, because the start point of the waveform can be quite accurately predicted due to the large number of levels.

In other words, like digital cameras, the quality seems higher than the sample rate should allow because the capture is effectively an analogue process.

Objects of duration shorter than the sample period are not resolved properly, but supposedly we can't hear them so it doesn't matter.

44.1/16 still sounds hard and tinny in the HF though. All the way across the disc.

 

[ter]

One word - REMASTERING.

Let's stop living a cob -webbed dream. Remastering of 'What' exactly in lots of cases? I can only assume all this is based on what was first thought to be 'that perfect vinyl recorded performance'.... and the fallacy that an actual glorious 'benchmark' analogue master tape still exists somewhere. In many cases I know , they are GONE! Even Mercury with their famous late 50's early 60's 3 microphone stereo master tapes ....to even reclaim them digitally had to restore the original Ampex tape machines and religiously keep cleaning the play back heads constantly while they transferred the material to a safe digital domain 'storage'..

Record companies realized they could not stand around and let the masters on acetate tapes deteriorate in ever gaining larger expensive storage space.They digitized them. And in any case, the corporate- compacted record companies of today are rapidly selling off any of their old existing record presses they still owned. Hey, it is just like the problems the present film industry faces 'restoring film'. Before the dawn of home video, they were running out of storage,,,the older films were thought 'good for perhaps a revival now and then',,, not for DVD resale. Many films, in that case were left to deteriorate in the back of non air conditioned container storages in the open - in hot sun. And to restore some of those, they have to reply on second or third generation 'masters' kept perhaps elsewhere in cool areas - in various countries, to set about digitally reclaiming/restoring...... remastering them for public consumption.

I can recall reading of many, many studio botches that took place in particular sound recordings. And with a simple CD processing -those faults have been finally made clear as day - unlike their vinyl counterparts hiding the faults ,in some cases - to what actually happened. I:E: A slightly noisy ventilating fan somewhere in the studio, distant traffic noises, an underground train going through -somewhere.. deep beneath the recording studio. Perhaps an engineer on the final master analogue tape shut down the string section in one channel too soon. Or singers in duet, supposedly 'together the same day' doing it....are now easily revealed as being in two different acoustic settings( doing their work) probably then ... weeks or months apart. Most of those overlooked problems that slipped through with vinyl editions are uncorrectable unless digital patching comes to its aid. In fact CD revealed 'the make -up truth' of many recordings as well for the first time..

 

[barrymidd]

Listen Ter, if you think vinyl is inferior to digital then just listen to all your music digitally.
We vinyl fans don't give a monkeys what you think. The more people think like you , the more vinyl there is for people like me to get hold of.
Do you honestly think that all us vinyl fans are deaf or deluded?
Carry on!

 

[ter]

Listen Ter, if you think vinyl is inferior to digital then just listen to all your music digitally.
We vinyl fans don't give a monkeys what you think. The more people think like you , the more vinyl there is for people like me to get hold of.
Do you honestly think that all us vinyl fans are deaf or deluded?
Carry on!

Oh! Truth hurts. You are so ungrateful at my comments. You have not addressed one single point I made.It was not hostile I was just pointing out the difficulties any late arrival vinyl enthusiast faces. Well I will not be offering you any of my 70 feet or more pristine perfect vinyl pressings from the finest sources, in flawless unmarked covers and boxes - brought brand spanking new. Collected when they were freely available, new . Vinyl, which in quite a few cases is now out of print- in any format.. Though I would well and truly qualify as being a member of the vinyl brigade...as well as that as a 7000 strong CD fan. .

Therefore I can only picture your sad dilemma along with others similar : forced to be, like scavengers and rat catchers at the local opportunity shop cum 'churn tip'. You grab and take 'what's left to have' and then sort out in what condition it is, as well !!! Apparently 'anything is considered of value' to gloat about, as long as it appears clean : pretends or appear so, after much feverish and frantic scrubbing time. As 'a serious vinyl' collector ....but not as what is normally taken as a serious music collector, I can only gather. What a situation to be in! Save us, someone!
Trying to make out your discarded 'finds' are the standards... for which all modern progress, must travel and be judged by. How hilarious does it get?
The 'BIG defense' statement - is then always trotted out :"Look at how many vinyl -we got for XX amount of money"! As far as the real intrinsic value or lack thereof, of what some then proclaim certain performances on vinyl to be........also tends to show a complete lack of information about the particular history of the actual recorded performance contained. I laugh out loud -seeing people praise what were then and still are, '5 rate junk' performances on vinyl. Having being both musically and sonically 'rightfully trounced' in all quarters on their original release for glaring shortcomings. If they were soundly universally judged as 5 rate then....they still are today.

Do some of these second hand dealing vinyl collectors actually know anything at all about what vinyl they 'dragged home' ? Their comments at times, certainly answers that question loud and clear.. They forget that there are people around that have a photographic memory for any recordings of any note, even back to the start of the 60's. Who can instantly recall the recording - the year of their release- the venue used - its engineering and make a instant judgement of its 'character' and musical worth.
But WE must remember today... :Hey its on vinyl!.....and that is everything to strictly addicted, at any cost ; to sole vinyl- freaks"

 

[Have Fun]

Curiouser & Curiouser ..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force

see reactive centrifugal force
A reactive centrifugal force is the reaction force to a centripetal force. A mass undergoing curved motion, such as circular motion, constantly accelerates toward the axis of rotation. This centripetal acceleration is provided by a centripetal force, which is exerted on the mass by some other object. In accordance with Newton's Third Law of Motion, the mass exerts an equal and opposite force on the object. This is the reactive centrifugal force. It is directed away from the center of rotation, and is exerted by the rotating mass on the object that originates the centripetal acceleration.[9][10][11]
Does anyone know/ remember what the force is called that applies to a load which when rotated about an axis becomes easier to lift? – (I recall a demonstration on this on TV years ago - Farriday Lectures maybe. A kid was stood on a turntable with a weight on a long handle – kid couldn’t lift the weight at all, but when he was spun he was able to.)

 

[sonddek]

Curiouser & Curiouser ..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force

see reactive centrifugal force
A reactive centrifugal force is the reaction force to a centripetal force. A mass undergoing curved motion, such as circular motion, constantly accelerates toward the axis of rotation. This centripetal acceleration is provided by a centripetal force, which is exerted on the mass by some other object. In accordance with Newton's Third Law of Motion, the mass exerts an equal and opposite force on the object. This is the reactive centrifugal force. It is directed away from the center of rotation, and is exerted by the rotating mass on the object that originates the centripetal acceleration.[9][10][11]
Does anyone know/ remember what the force is called that applies to a load which when rotated about an axis becomes easier to lift? – (I recall a demonstration on this on TV years ago - Farriday Lectures maybe. A kid was stood on a turntable with a weight on a long handle – kid couldn’t lift the weight at all, but when he was spun he was able to.)

Fictitious forces arising from circular motion (like centrifugal and Coriolis) are not very applicable in the case of a turntable. The record itself is easily strong enough to provide the centripetal forces required to hold it together. It therefore represents itself to the stylus as an entirely linear entity. To understand stylus and arm loads you pretty much need to forget about the record's circular motion. That's why I suggested earlier that a good way to understand the need for anti-skating force is to imagine a straight groove dragged under the stylus with offset arm pivot and linearly declining velocity. The stylus does not know the record is circular.

As regards help with lifting, you might be talking about gyroscopic forces and the conservation of angular momentum.

 

[sean99]

Do you honestly think that all us vinyl fans are deaf or deluded?

No. You simply prefer the euphonic distortion of vinyl to the more accurate but less pleasing (to you) sound of a CD

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=1

Discuss

 

[Robert]

I always found sibilance a real annoyance until I started spending a lot more on TT-arm-cartridge. Maybe it was just that the cartridge had a better stylus and the setup was more precise?

BTW I think you meant 90° earlier, not 45°.

Yes, and yes I did - whoops LOL, I have a very strange room

 

[Robert]

Robert there's not 'only one applicable' to the Rega arm, you can choose between, Lofgren, Baewald and Stevenson as you see fit to bias towards lower overall distortion or minimum EOS distortion. They are different solutions that provide different results.

Given this thread is about EOS distortion, that is where the problem is most severe, and Rega specify alignment of a Rega arm on their decks for minimum EOS distortion - there is only one correct alignment.
You did specifically refer to my TT/arm.

 

[Werner]

Listen Ter, if you think vinyl is inferior to digital then just listen to all your music digitally....
Do you honestly think that all us vinyl fans are deaf or deluded?

Sigh.

There is a huge difference between this being better than that, and this sounding better than that.

Digital at the level of CD and higher-res is better than the average LP, but that does not keep quite some people finding that the latter sounds better. Instead of heaping all sorts of imagined sins onto digital (while all too often objecting to others doing the same with LP) one'd better spend some time 1) understanding this and 2) investigating why it is so.

I understand digital. I like it (even MP3, it has its place). I also like my Orbe and Gyro, Allaerts, Lyras, Benz, and Denons. I don't feel the slightest contradictory about that.

 

[Werner]

Objects of duration shorter than the sample period are not resolved properly,

Oh, but they are. Really.

The anti-aliasing filter prior to the sampler spreads it out in time, allowing its portion that lives below half the sampling rate to be captured. After reconstruction the limited remains of the short object will have the exact same temporal location (but not width) of the original (given linear phase filters).

Of course narrower features have less energy below half-sampling and so ultimately they sink in the system noise floor.

 

[Basil]

No. You simply prefer the euphonic distortion of vinyl to the more accurate but less pleasing (to you) sound of a CD

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=1

Discuss

The sound of hammer hitting nail reverberates through the thread...