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¿End-of-side distortion — inherent to vinyl?

I use an R.C.M. for my records, which somehow brings '****ed' records back to (almost) virgin (!!£&?!) condition. I prefer toilet paper for my arse, though !:)

Yes, a 12" arm WILL reduce tracking distortion, but it unfortunately increases mass. No free lunch here, I'm afraid !
NAIL ON HEAD!
 
I buy mainly virgin vinyl.

I use high quality line-contact stylii (Ortofon and Lyra MCs).

I'm extremely fussy about record hygiene and TT set-up.

I rarely encountered end-of-side tracking or tracing distortion with Linn Ittok.

I've yet to encounter end-of-side tracking or tracing distortion with Naim ARO.

No, I'm not deaf or getting deaf.

What's the problem with vinyl?

As I previously posted, if you listen almost exclusively to classical, the LP is a long dead format.
 
A 1 or 2% tracking error at the beginning and end of an LP isn't really audible IMO. I think a much better explanation of why vinyl can sometimes (especially on worn LP's and cartridges) deteriorate near the end of the side is the decreasing speed of the stylus. A stylus travels over 16cm/sec (e.g 30 x pi x 33.3 / 60) at the beginning of a side and below 8cm/sec (e.g. 14 x pi x 33.3 / 60) at the end. The speed of the stylus on the record has an effect on the dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio available on the disc at that point.
 
As I previously posted, if you listen almost exclusively to classical, the LP is a long dead format.

Thanks for telling me. I will stop listening to my classical LPs now that I have had the benefit of your authoritative advice.
 
It is nevertheless true. You simply cannot refute mathematical proofs, inconvenient as they are. And as a vinyl fan, you will no doubt know the reason why 12" p/u arma are available. It is to reduce the playback errors induced by the inherant limitations of vinyl playback.

I should have made my point more clearly: the error is very small, and probably inaudible. This very minor limitation is almost certainly NOT the source of any reduction in quality heard at the end of a side.

And how many of those singles were in any way playable?

Every single one I've tried so far.

More iportantly, how many of them did you actuallty want the music on? £0.0125 per single is a stupid amount of money if the record is a) f*cked, b) shite.

Several. I have found singles by some of my favourite bands in there. The Clash, Yazoo, the Stones, you name it. There's also lots of music I don't yet know. It's a lot of fun.

And even if they wer all 1st pressing masterpieces by the greatest bands ever, the fact remains that if you are in any way interested in new music, you are mostly f*cked.

Nonsense. I often buy new releases on vinyl. Google it.

I have been collecting music since 1965. I have about 1200 LPs & 2500 singles/EPs. A goodly proportion of which I bought second hand.

OK - no more sales pitch - I'll take em. Just name a sensible price.

And even at the peak of vinyl's popularity, most 2nd hand LPs were ****ed. They had mostly been played on some mass market groove grinder, were covered in fingerprints & fag ash & quite honestly fit only for landfill.

Actually the sort of stylus which ruins a record often rode quite high in the groove, and good line contact styluses reach past most of that damage. I never have any qualms about buying used records even with visible signs of wear. If your deck is set up right, then they seem to get better the more you play them.

Now, you might want to be the audio equivalent of a steam train enthusiast, getting covered in soot & shite whilst taking an inferior form of transport from one place nobody has heard of to another nobody wants to go to, and that's just fine.

Again, this is nonsense. I just put a record on, cue it, enjoy it, and forget about it. There's no real maintenance, and no soot.

But at least do not try to con people who do not know any better that your obsession has anything whatsoever to do with the search for true audio excellence. It is an anachronistic, technologically inferior dead end used mostly for playing sub-standard (all the good condition LPs having been snapped up years ago) old music. And stick that up YOUR arse, sunshine.

I'm not trying to con anyone, you are, by stating blatant falsehoods in your criticism of vinyl, which is a very enjoyable medium to use for music reproduction, as many people on this forum will agree. I wonder if you are so angry because you mistakenly believe, as you put it, that "all the good condition LPs [have] been snapped up years ago". Relax - there's plenty of life left in the old dog. As others have said, it's not illegal to use both vinyl and digital, so why turn it into a war? Has 'uncle' locked you in your room again?
 
Baz has a point. Not much new classical is being released on vinyl.

Lots of old stuff is still available secondhand and some great performances are being re-released on vinyl -- but the new stuff, she is hard to find.

Joe
 
Baz has a point. Not much new classical is being released on vinyl.

Lots of old stuff is still available secondhand and some great performances are being re-released on vinyl -- but the new stuff, she is hard to find.

Joe


That's quite sad, Joe, but what I suspected, reading the weekly reviews in my newspaper.

I understand that the most avid consumers of the new compact disc players in '82 were classical enthusiasts. Obviously the cornflake-free aspect of CDs outweighed the sonic degradation. Luckily, things have moved on, but in both formats !
 
There is 'significant' variation in the angle that the stylus is presented to the groove wall as it tracks across the record, why else would angular distortion exist? Only a linear tracker does not see this change in angle.

Thank you - sonddek is refuting the fundamental principles of anti-skating theory - of course there is a significant change in the angle of a record's groove as it nears the centre - this is basic geometry. Give me one example of a tonearm designer who has set anti-skating to decrease as it traverses a record because it will track better.

mat

PS - Quote from Analogue productions - note last sentence:

Track 1 Anti-skating test; 315Hz amplitude sweep to +12dbu (Lateral)
Signal should remain clean in both channels up to the highest level, both audibly and as viewed on an oscilloscope. In case of distortion, increase anti-skating force or decrease anti-skate until breakup occurs equally in both channels. The left channel information is inscribed on the inner groove wall, the right channel information, on the outer groove wall. Because of the offset angle of a pivoted tonearm, a constantly varying vector force biases the arm towards the center of the record causing the stylus to lose contact with the outer (i.e. right channel) groove wall. Both linear and modulated groove velocity, tracking force, stylus profile, and vinyl composition are contributing factors. The anti skating force attempts to ameliorate this by applying an opposing similar force.
It is also accepted that the overall force vector increases as the tonearm approaches closer to the spindle or end of the record.

And from a study by James Kogen on The Anti-Skating phenomenon (1967) it was found that 'skating force will change as a function of groove radius' but 'however frictional force appears to be constant with velocity'. He also states that the skating force is dependant on the distance of the stylus tip from the spindle which of course varies as the record is played.
 
Mike,

I understand that the most avid consumers of the new compact disc players in '82 were classical enthusiasts. Obviously the cornflake-free aspect of CDs outweighed the sonic degradation. Luckily, things have moved on, but in both formats !
The reality is that if you want to have access to wide swath of music you can't limit yourself to any single format.

Vinyl-only guys miss out on most new classical recordings.

CD-only guys miss out on a fair bit of alternative rock and experimental music and luverly remastered jazz albums.

If you're in this for the music the format it's on is very much secondary and, in any case, recording and mastering quality trump format. Good LP beats shitty CD, good CD beats shitty LP, 16/44.1 CD beats shitty 128 kbps mp3 rip.

Joe
 
Vinyl-only guys miss out on most new classical recordings.

CD-only guys miss out on a fair bit of alternative rock and experimental music and luverly remastered jazz albums.

Are the 15 ips reel tape only guys missing out on anything?







Didn't think so.
 
Eric,

I need a new hobby. Is much available on reel-to-reel?

Joe
 
P.S. I've not heard the original master tapes but I have to say that the CD layer on the SACD reissues of the RCA Living Stereo releases I've bought — which sell for about $10 a pop — sound pretty damn amazing considering most were recorded in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

All that's really needed is some care in the recording and mastering — and, of course, ginormous speakers, the more ginormouser the better.

Joe
 
Are the 15 ips reel tape only guys missing out on anything?







Didn't think so.

Cool! If you'd send me the URL where I can order Ben Folds/Nick Hornby "Lonely Avenue" on R2R, that'd be great (it's not listed on their site). I already have the cd and vinyl - might as well go for the hat trick, as they say in curling.
 
Mike,

Quote:
I understand that the most avid consumers of the new compact disc players in '82 were classical enthusiasts. Obviously the cornflake-free aspect of CDs outweighed the sonic degradation. Luckily, things have moved on, but in both formats !
The reality is that if you want to have access to wide swath of music you can't limit yourself to any single format.

Vinyl-only guys miss out on most new classical recordings.

CD-only guys miss out on a fair bit of alternative rock and experimental music and luverly remastered jazz albums.

If you're in this for the music the format it's on is very much secondary and, in any case, recording and mastering quality trump format. Good LP beats shitty CD, good CD beats shitty LP, 16/44.1 CD beats shitty 128 kbps mp3 rip.

Joe

Some good points Joe and generally true.

However, as a mainly classical fan, I'm missing nothing on new releases. All the 1000's of albums I havecover all my musical tastes and there's only so much of the same composer's piece you can have! (! must have several 1812's for instance).

My experience suggests that CD is generally inferior not due to the medium which is capable of better performance than LP but because most are appallingly mastered or recorded and are worth only using as coasters. There's the odd exception but it is exactly that. Vinyl for all its prehistoric qualities lives on. Millions of vinyl fans and an industry offering more TT's for sale now than it did 30 years ago cannot be wrong.
 
Inaccurate in the extreme. Rude and unnecessary in tone too. Especially the last two sentences. PFM is a record shop, remember? That's how this site is financed. Also, and as I've stated already: New music is released on vinyl.

My rudeness was a measured response to Sondekk's equally rude response to my original post, Johnfromnorwich.

And yes, a small proportion of new music is released on vinyl. But that proportion IS doomed to decrease. Apart from anything else, do you honestly think that the backup infrastructure will continue much longer? Where will the pressing plants source new presses? Where will the mastering studios source replacement cutting lathes etc?

And what exactly has the fact that PFM is a second hand recorsd store have to do with anything?

Now, you can hide your head in the sand as much as you like, but the fact remains that, other than for a small proportion of an equally small demographic, vinyl is the audio equivalent of a slide rule, and about as accurate.

The glory days will NOT return. Things have improved and moved on, thank christ.

Chris
 
The glory days will NOT return. Things have improved and moved on, thank Christ.

Chris


And here's me thinking the glory days with vinyl are here now, after forty-five years in hifi.

You improve and move on if you wish, but these ears are not for digitising.
(Apologies to Maggie).
 


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