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Why do you think the Egyptians don't like Israel?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by ariegur, May 24, 2012.

  1. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    So there were multiple cases of "whole Palestinian families killed by an IDF tank shell hitting their home"? When? Where?
    Or perhaps its one of those "everybody knows its true, happens all the time" truths.
     
  2. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    You mean because Israel is the only Western democracy and the only country in the area that will not start a destructive war in the interests of a dictatorship?
     
  3. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    Cast Lead - tank shell, four daughters killed IIRC. Well covered, don't have time to search but will later. Remember now?

    Edit: three daughters and niece of doctor
    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/04/gaza.idf/index.html

    The point I was making was does the hegemony of uniform and military hardware, coupled with "opps" and "inadvertent" and "collateral damage" really make any difference?
     
  4. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Civilian casualty statistics are widely available, often including time, place, names and ages of the dead. It would take seconds to find examples of the above. I posted lists previously.
     
  5. ariegur

    ariegur pfm Member

    Greg,

    To the dead people I don't think that it matters if they were murdered or killed. I think that there is a big gap between a group of people that broke into a village at night and murdered a family including babies in their sleep - and between soldier(s) that by mistake are killing innocent citizens.

    The difference is absolutely clear.


    Arye
     
  6. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused


    Why is it you can empathise with Israels position but Arabs cannot empathise with that of the Palestinians?. Why should Arabs empathise with Israel?, its a Jewish state for Jews which came about via large scale expulsion of Arabs. If the situation was reversed and a small Arab state suddenly came into being surrounded by Jewish states one of which was called Egypt I doubt very much whether you would be wondering why the Jewish state of Egypt disliked the Arab state of Israel, particularly if the Jews in the West Bank were treated like the occupants of the West bank are today. Wakey! Wakey!
     
  7. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    The difference is not absolutely clear. The hegemony of uniform has convinced you otherwise.
     
  8. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    I take your point, Greg, and agree with you completely in your conclusions.

    The point I was trying to make is that to throw out a phrase like "Entire Palestinian families killed by a tank shell" gives the impression that this is something that happens regularly every now and then. It does not, and since you compare it to the cold blooded murder of an Israeli family, it would imply that Israeli tank commanders every now and then, out of the blue, decide to destroy a Palestinian family. To suggest that this is the case is destructive, hate-generating propaganda.
    The casualties you refer to are not an "entire family" but three sisters and a cousin. (Macabre to put it this way, I know, sorry) And they were not killed by Israelis who slipped into their home at night and slit their throats, but in the context of a declared war operation against Gaza, the leaders of which had done everything possible to provoke an Israeli military offensive. And who, I might add, seemed to do all they could to obtain as many civilian casualties as possible. (public relations).
     
  9. ariegur

    ariegur pfm Member

    Greg,

    There is a difference between a driver that by mistake is killing a family in accident - and between a group of people that by purpose is murdering a family in their beds.

    Do you agree with this one?

    Arye
     
  10. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    No. You're not taking account of what put the tank there in the first place. The murders you refer to are unquestionably awful, but so too is what lead up to the "accidental" killing of those four young girls. Your acceptance that Cast Lead was necessary to be conducted as it was is the divergence. It didn't need to be and its the moral cowardice of Cast Lead that I have no time for. You on the other hand are unable to see this.
     
  11. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused


    One percent of any population is psychopathic, which means roughly one per cent of the IDF will have no morals whatsoever and have no qualms about killing Palestinians for fun or because they do not like them. Its a bit difficult to believe it does not happen or would be frowned upon by everyone in Israel, after all Baruch Goldenstein had a monument erected in his honour in Hebron and it was visited by thousands of Israelis, and Ariel Sharon was/is a hero to many in Israel, yet he led a massacre of women and children in Qibya.


    As regards to "doing everything they could to provoke a military offensive", as I remember the sequence of events there was a cease fire for six months after which Hamas asked for an easing of restrictions. Israel said no, who wanted conflict?. Looks like Israel did to me.
     
  12. ariegur

    ariegur pfm Member

    To my opinion you are wrong all the way. I know that I can repeat time after time what the facts were and I know that you and others see this in other way - but facts are facts and you can't ignore facts or suit them to your understanding:

    1. Israel withdraw of the Gaza Strip
    2. There were democratic elections in Gaza Strip
    3. The Hamas won the elections.
    4. The Hams fired missiles to citizens' targets at the south of Israel.

    These are facts and nothing but facts.

    And here the divergence starts:
    You, in England, think that when 300,000 innocent citizens are sitting in shelters each time a terrorist from Gaza feels like firing a missile, it is OK. I wonder what would you think if because of a terrorist in your surround, 300,000 citizens in England will have to sit in shelters days and nights. But when Israelis have to sit in shelters - hey, what's wrong with this? They are only Israelis. Old people? babies? Schools kids? Just Israelis - they can sit in shelters days and nights - and between you and me? These Israelis are a group of murderers so the more they are sitting in shelters the less innocent Palestinians are being killed by them.
    The truth is: The massive missiles firing to Israel is a war start. You can like it or not - but this is a fact too. BTW, I think that one missile fired to citizens' target is a war starter but maybe something is wrong with me.
    So there was a war. And one of the most justified wars. And this tank was a part of this justified war that was ignited by the Palestinians in Gaza. And the soldiers of this tank killed by mistake these young girls as it happened in wars.
    These are the facts. Your belief? You have the rights to live by your belief but I think that someone should understand when he is talking about his belief and when he is talking facts.

    Arye
     
  13. Still

    Still gyldengourd

    So what was your reason for asking why we think the Egyptians don't like Israel?
     
  14. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Arye, you appear quite radicalised / agitated of late!

    The reality is you live in a country that is effectively at war with it's neighbours as it is occupying much land it has no legitimate right to. Some resistance to this is only to be expected. I'd argue that if you don't like it you should consider emigrating - I'd certainly not wish to live in a country in such a predicament. It was bad enough here with Northern Ireland and the 'Christian terrorism' it brought to our streets. I'd certainly not be prepared to contend with ducking missiles from either side in the I/P conflict. To be blunt I don't give even the slightest crap about religion and wouldn't want to be in a location where those that do would present any danger to me, so that rules the likes of Israel, Palestine, Iran, the born-again parts of America etc out for me. There is still enough of this planet that is not blighted by such nonsense and I'll happily limit my options to those parts!
     
  15. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    I disagree with you and feel you are somewhat brainwashed. We'll never agree.
     
  16. Dinovector

    Dinovector pfm Member

    Both sides have thrown their fair share of first punches. Obviously it's the other sides fault, how could we be wrong? So the question begs, WTF are you going to do about it? You can't chuck stones at each other for the rest of eternity, can you?
     
  17. ariegur

    ariegur pfm Member

    Tony,
    Israel withdraw Gaza and I think that if this is what happened in Gaza when we are not there, then we have the right to be very careful in withdraw from other places.

    Greg,
    I don't think that I'm brainwashed more or less than you are.

    Arye
     
  18. ariegur

    ariegur pfm Member

    Dinovector,

    If you agree with me about points 1 to 4 (and I don't think that there is a possibility not to agree) - then please tell me what Israel did wrong in Gaza Strip?

    Arye
     
  19. Dinovector

    Dinovector pfm Member

    It doesn't matter what I think, all that matters is what you're going to do about it?
     
  20. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    Arye, you repeatedly place huge emphasis on Israel's withdrawal from Gaza without appearing to recognise how little that changes things for Gazans.
     

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