Tory Brexit vs. Animal Rights

[jtrade]

Petition here on Avaaz.

Thanks for the link, Tony, duly signed.

As you'd probably guess by now, I don't think the past, future or current level of animal welfare in the UK has much, if anything, to do with whichever political party is in office.

Long term, the best way to reduce the suffering of farmed animals might be to stop eating them : that would be a significant way of taking personal responsibility for the issue.

 

[Euan]

Don't we have some of the world's highest animal welfare standards written into law already?

 

[stevec67]

Yes we do.

 

[avole]

Here's the article in question:

"In formulating and implementing the Union's agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting the legislative or administrative provisions and customs of the Member States relating in particular to religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage."

The point the BVA was making is that, despite the UK having decent welfare standards, nowhere does it recognise that animals are sentient beings. If it did, perhaps it would outlaw any form of horse racing, greyhound racing etc.

 

[stevec67]

Shortly after we outlaw making fat labradors chase tennis balls?

 

[avole]

Why would you outlaw that? In fact, attempting to get a Labrador to lose weight by exercising more is a good thing, and therefore meets the guidelines.

 

[stevec67]

I'm suggesting that getting greyhounds to run after a rabbit on a rail is no different from doing the same with a fat labrador and a stick. Consequently I don't want to ban greyhound racing any more than I would labradors and sticks.

 

[MVV]

I'm surprised that anyone on pfm could use the phrase 'will of the people' in regard to the brexit vote. This is a country divided down the middle. The young were not politicised at the time and like everyone else including the likes of Gove and Johnson thought that, when the pantomime was over, it would all go back to normal.
The polls say the leave vote is largely holding up and I guess that is true of those who voted leave last time. I think one of the reasons for the rush to leave is the knowledge that if there was a second referendum the young would vote and they would vote remain.

We are in a cold civil war over brexit and I for one want to ramp that war up. However I don't like long posts so will refrain.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

It's such a pity we have shit people welfare... and sick that some would put animal welfare above the unemployed, the homeless etc...

 

[avole]

I'm suggesting that getting greyhounds to run after a rabbit on a rail is no different from doing the same with a fat labrador and a stick. Consequently I don't want to ban greyhound racing any more than I would labradors and sticks.

Which shows how little you know about the "sport" of greyhound racing. This might help you understand https://www.peta.org/issues/animals...-factsheets/greyhound-racing-death-fast-lane/.

 

[glancaster]

Here's the article in question:

"In formulating and implementing the Union's agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting the legislative or administrative provisions and customs of the Member States relating in particular to religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage."

The point the BVA was making is that, despite the UK having decent welfare standards, nowhere does it recognise that animals are sentient beings. If it did, perhaps it would outlaw any form of horse racing, greyhound racing etc.

+1 for quoting the relevant part of the treaty. However, I think the point is rather that, as it stands, this is part of UK law and, after Brexit day it will not be unless we explicitly incorporate it some other way.

On the one hand I'm not sure how effective it has been, as it's so heavily caveated so as not to unduly inconvenience Spanish bullfighters, English foxhunters, etc., and I'm not even sure philosophically what it means to say 'animals are sentient'. On the other, it is clearly a statement of intent, to say that we are moving towards higher standards of animal welfare.

The thing is, this is the EU Withdrawal Bill. It grants any 'Minister of the Crown' special powers, like Henry VIII. Once passed, Gove will be able to correct any oversight with a stroke of his pen. And, actually, that is the thing about it that concerns me - and I think should concern any UK citizen - much, much more.

Kind regards

- Garry

 

[Re-Joyce]

As long as labour continue to support Brexit we are screwed.

Since PFM must be densely populated with card carrying Labour and Union members, has your voice been heard?
I admit to having no idea what position my union (Unite) takes but would guess Leave since Corbyn = McCluskey
Off to check and write strongly worded email because I love wasting time on lost causes ...

 

[stevec67]

Which shows how little you know about the "sport" of greyhound racing. This might help you understand https://www.peta.org/issues/animals...-factsheets/greyhound-racing-death-fast-lane/.

1. I don't regard PETA as a reliable source of information.
2. A lot of the cases they mention are USA related. This would be illegal in the UK, if it's not in the USA.
3. The UK cases are illegal in the UK so are already covered by relevant laws.
4. The fundamental act of getting a dog to chase an inanimate object is not cruel. It's natural hunter behaviour. Animal cruelty, for any purpose, is covered by UK or other national or local law. Some people abuse domestic pets. I don't suggest that we outlaw keeping dogs as pets because some people mistreat them.
5. If people involved in greyhound racing are abusing the animals involved this this should be policed, in the same way that car drivers are policed in order to stop them endangering others.

 

[andrewhockley]

Here's the article in question:

"In formulating and implementing the Union's agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting the legislative or administrative provisions and customs of the Member States relating in particular to religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage."

The point the BVA was making is that, despite the UK having decent welfare standards, nowhere does it recognise that animals are sentient beings. If it did, perhaps it would outlaw any form of horse racing, greyhound racing etc.

I can't see why anyone would argue against high standards for animal welfare, but surely the above EU quote is a complete nonsense. How can you "pay full regard to animal welfare" AND "respect religious rites cultural traditions etc etc". They clearly conflict. This is just more politician's nonsense.

 

[Tony L]

As long as labour continue to support Brexit we are screwed.

Agreed. I have a feeling I’ll be back to throwing my vote away with the Lib Dems next time as I can’t in good conscience vote for any party that wishes to implement Brexit in the full knowledge of it being an economic, social and legal disaster.

 

[kendo]

Wrong!!! The referendum was advisory only and due to its nature it appealed to thicko scum bags and so it should be completely ignored!!

What a complete load of tosh ... u lost get over it !

Losing is something we are all going to have to get used to, even the Little Englanders.
Lots of pain, no gain.

 

[Cav]

Agreed. I have a feeling I’ll be back to throwing my vote away with the Lib Dems next time as I can’t in good conscience vote for any party that wishes to implement Brexit in the full knowledge of it being an economic, social and legal disaster.

Can any Party undo the implementation of Article 50? If so, how?

 

[avole]

1. I don't regard PETA as a reliable source of information.
2. A lot of the cases they mention are USA related. This would be illegal in the UK, if it's not in the USA.
3. The UK cases are illegal in the UK so are already covered by relevant laws.
4. The fundamental act of getting a dog to chase an inanimate object is not cruel. It's natural hunter behaviour. Animal cruelty, for any purpose, is covered by UK or other national or local law. Some people abuse domestic pets. I don't suggest that we outlaw keeping dogs as pets because some people mistreat them.
5. If people involved in greyhound racing are abusing the animals involved this this should be policed, in the same way that car drivers are policed in order to stop them endangering others.

You must learn that your value judgements not, apparently, based on research, are worthless for your points 1 through to 5. A little research on your part might help you change those to something closer to the truth.

 

[stevec67]

Nonsense.
Item 3 for a start is just a fact.

 

[Still]

... the will of the people ... end of !