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Ssssssssssssibilance?

I have a Hutter rack with Naim glass and cups and balls. I have to say since I added the Dynaudio Contour 3.4's things are sounding much, much better.


I wonder if your amp is not helping here. The 282 has a reputation for being quite lively, and partnering it with a 300 might be revealing this even more. What rack are they on?
 
In my case, it was speakers - B&W 804Ds (room analysis showed they boosted the frequency range for vocals significantly - The Shins, Feist, Adele were particularly annoying as I recall).

Does it happen with the same track via a different source? That'll at least rule out the player if so, before you start mucking about with cartridges and stuff.
 
"However, it is very rare in my experience, to find an arm that needs less than the matching anti-skating. So I would start at the recommended setting and then try going up from there until you get the most musical performance"

Contrasting views indeed, Mike ! Everything I've read or experienced (with pretty high-end coils, admittedly) suggests going lower from a 1/2 to 2/3 starter position yet your quote above says 'go up from there'. By inference, ending up at a higher bias weight than the VTF in many/most cases. Unless he's simply talking about m/magnets, this really doesn't hold water for me.

Can I assume that your stylus was worn on the side appropriate to your biasing? My experience is not of wear on the stylus but of cantilevers gradually drifting sideways. This certainly happens with Koetsus (well documented) with owners who apply negligible or no bias. I would imagine any anti-skate which is way out of kilter would be easily detected aurally. Not all arms display biasing increments (neither of my 12" arms do). I would deduce, then, that manufacturers consider this aspect of set-up to be arbitrary and not particularly related to VTF.
 
Hi Nat,

My first suggestion would be look at your earthing/grounding.

I think this has become far more of a headache with the introduction of wall-warts and the like.

In my case I wrestled with this for 10 months. 95% solved by:

Running a piece of wire from the metalwork on any device which I didn't know had an earth cable to the plug, I ran this cable back to the earthing pin on my pre-amp. In my case this included:

LPSUs;
ultraRendu;
SingXer-F1; and
Border Patrol DAC.

INSTANT relief. A quick test with a few wires should tell you whether this will work for you.

I should add that I found other changes made a difference, but only temporarily. I believe this was because by touching things I was grounding the system, and then it returned to its former condition.

Since then i have further improved matters by pursuing the grounding hypothesis with my digital back end.

M

/\ Utter tosh. Ignore.
 
Why and what would you suggest?

Not to be swayed by technical looking gobbledygook for a start!

Other than that it's all been covered by others.... Some sibilance is often present on recordings, a worn stylus is the biggest cause of extra sibilance from distortion and will feck your records, over bright equipment will make a meal of it as well. Compare your sound from vinyl with that from CD for a start. If it still sounds sibilant it's not the vinyl front end to blame. If vinyl sounds much brighter than CD then something's wrong and this will contribute to sibilance.
 
Nat,

I can only speak from experience. If you come up after Christmas I will back out of the changes and demonstrate it to you. I would emphasis that the effect I was suffering effected both my digital AND vinyl front ends.

Believe me, I tried MANY things before solving the issue for NO money and in a few minutes. The joy of my suggestion is that it will cost you a minimum amount and take you half an hour. If it fails then you will have lost nothing, but potentially gained everything.

How anyone can be so didactic in their response is beyond me.

M
 
often it's the choice of mic and/or mic preamp with a given singer - if you go over to gearslutz.com (a music production oriented site) there are loads of discussions on the subject:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..1.22.1753.dS0UVLdbZro

at any rate - you'll find that nearly half your vocal recordings exhibit some degree of it. i would suspect the recording before your kit. If you have a few recordings even with zero sibilance then it seals the deal.
 
if, on the other hand - your system always gives you a ssssimilar type of ssssibilance then i might look to the equipment
 
often it's the choice of mic and/or mic preamp with a given singer - if you go over to gearslutz.com (a music production oriented site) there are loads of discussions on the subject:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..1.22.1753.dS0UVLdbZro

at any rate - you'll find that nearly half your vocal recordings exhibit some degree of it. i would suspect the recording before your kit. If you have a few recordings even with zero sibilance then it seals the deal.

I agree, but if it sounds overly agressive/incomfotable then the cause is somewhere in the system (speakers or record player setup generally).
 
usually i find that you're getting close in your quest for 'neutral' audio when you can hear unique acoustic signatures (or character) on different recordings - that is to say - the most difference you are hearing in a given production. But any such 'signatures' that are constant on all material need to be looked at more closely. So I'm kind of agreeing with you but wanting to put that into general terms. I do not know if I was being very clear ...
 
Nat,

I can only speak from experience. If you come up after Christmas I will back out of the changes and demonstrate it to you. I would emphasis that the effect I was suffering effected both my digital AND vinyl front ends.

Believe me, I tried MANY things before solving the issue for NO money and in a few minutes. The joy of my suggestion is that it will cost you a minimum amount and take you half an hour. If it fails then you will have lost nothing, but potentially gained everything.

How anyone can be so didactic in their response is beyond me.

M

My single biggest gripe with hi fi, the thing that really pisses me off, is the way so many people who don't know a resistor from a spark plug keep wanting to share their "technical knowledge"!

Often it is so ridiculous that if we were talking cars then an answer to "how can I cure the understeer I'm getting?" could go along the lines of "well you need to put a carrot in the boot and paint the tyres pink.. works every time..." But this is electronics so add a few words like "impedance" and and "ground loops" etc and it can start to look feasible to the non technical!! A heavy dose of didacticism is then required lest more complete bollocks start to be believed by audiophools.... like magic mains fuses, any effect from mains cables etc etc etc. Harold Leak and Peter Walker would be rotating in their graves!
 
My single biggest gripe with hi fi, the thing that really pisses me off, is the way so many people who don't know a resistor from a spark plug keep wanting to share their "technical knowledge"!

Often it is so ridiculous that if we were talking cars then an answer to "how can I cure the understeer I'm getting?" could go along the lines of "well you need to put a carrot in the boot and paint the tyres pink.. works every time..." But this is electronics so add a few words like "impedance" and and "ground loops" etc and it can start to look feasible to the non technical!! A heavy dose of didacticism is then required lest more complete bollocks start to be believed by audiophools.... like magic mains fuses, any effect from mains cables etc etc etc. Harold Leak and Peter Walker would be rotating in their graves!

OK, I have been against the "like" function in the new forum version, but for the first time I actually found a totally valid use for it.
 
My single biggest gripe with hi fi, the thing that really pisses me off, is the way so many people who don't know a resistor from a spark plug keep wanting to share their "technical knowledge"!
Before I respond is this aimed at me, for advising that Nat ensures everything is earthed through a common earthing point, or at John Swenson whose post I linked to?

M
 
My single biggest gripe with hi fi, the thing that really pisses me off, is the way so many people who don't know a resistor from a spark plug keep wanting to share their "technical knowledge"!

Often it is so ridiculous that if we were talking cars then an answer to "how can I cure the understeer I'm getting?" could go along the lines of "well you need to put a carrot in the boot and paint the tyres pink.. works every time..." But this is electronics so add a few words like "impedance" and and "ground loops" etc and it can start to look feasible to the non technical!! A heavy dose of didacticism is then required lest more complete bollocks start to be believed by audiophools.... like magic mains fuses, any effect from mains cables etc etc etc. Harold Leak and Peter Walker would be rotating in their graves!

OK.

No response to my question above. You have no idea of my experience or qualifications. This smacks of being a simple Ad Hominem attack, and does nothing to assist Nat and her issues.

M
 
Hi Nat,

Since posting my thoughts and suggestions above I have:

1. Repeated my empirical experiments above;
2. Done some further DAC swapping to further understand what is potentially happening, at least in my system.

My belief is that much of what happens in audio system is complex, and other approaches mentioned above hold obvious merit and if they resolve what you are hearing - great.

In my case BOTH my LP12 and digital systems started suffering a level of what I would call sibilence with certain albums/tracks AFTER I introduced the Sonore microRendu and SingXer F1, something that I didn't readily realise at the time. These replaced a Naim NS01 which had functioned well for the best part of a decade.

This manifested itself in my system as VERY hard sibilence on certain tracks, such that I created a playlist of 'The Usual Suspects', these included:

War of the Worlds – Thunder Child (CD rip & Qobuz)
- Richard Burton has very hard 'S'es.
- Some singing vocals have same issue.
War of the Worlds – Spirit of Man (CD rip & Qobuz)
- Richard Burton has very hard 'S'es.
- Some singing vocals have same issue, Phil Lynott esp.
The Dangling Question - Simon & Garfunkle (CD rip & Q)
- Very hard 'S'es.
Son of Man - Tarzan - Phil Collins (CD rip)
- Very hard 'S'es.

These will do for now. Anyone reading this - I would be VERY interested in whether these cause issues in your system, and which DAC you use.

I carried out a number of experiments and eventually 'solved' the very hard sibilance by simply adding a cable from the bodywork of the SingXer F1 to my EAR pre-amp.

My 'working theory' was that the SingXer was powered from my LPS-1 powered microRendu, and that this was being powered by a floating earth SMPS. This contains a certain level of assumption, but the fact is that this was and IS repeatable and teh wire solved that issue.

I then did a mini audit on my system and identified anything that I thought might not be earthed back to my ring main via an IEC lead. This included my Border Patrol DAC, which I have since confirmed with Gary is not earthed via its mains lead to my ring mains.

Two weeks ago I simplified the wiring scheme I use to do this by adding an Earthing Block, this has enabled me to simply add/remove from this 'wiring loom'. The result? It is VERY easy to degrade my sound - and bring back the hard sibilence, but that I cannot improve on the result I have. Something I expected but wanted to prove to myself.

The effect is twofold:

Hard sibilance gone;
Noise floor lowered, that is low level detail becomes clearer, bass becomes more focused.

In terms of the files above:
War of the Worlds – Thunder Child (CD rip & Qobuz)
- Burton's hard 'S'es still present, maybe a bit less pronounced.
- Singing vocals = OK.
War of the Worlds – Spirit of Man (CD rip & Qobuz)
- Burton's hard 'S'es still present, maybe a bit less pronounced.
- Singing vocals = OK.
The Dangling Question - Simon & Garfunkle (CD rip & Q)
- Singing vocals = OK.
Son of Man - Tarzan - Phil Collins (CD rip)
- Singing vocals = OK.

However, there is still an amount of 'edge'. Is this systemic or file based?

A friend came over with his Chord Hugo. He has an excellent system but described frustrations that the center was a bit hollowed out & lacked body.

Placing the HUGO DAC in my system - ALL the edge with the files above was gone. The higher frequencies were more refined and had greater resolution. However, I have also had had other DACs through my system, including the Schitt Yggdrasil and the Lampizator L4G5, these have also demonstrated the same edge issues, in the case of the Yggdrasil these were somewhat reduced.

We then took my Border Patrol DAC back to my friends system. We noted the same result in BOTH systems:

Hugo
Greater resolution and finesse with high frequencies
Mid band anaemic

BP DAC
Propels you into the music
Real meat and balls to the music
......certain sharpness with rock and pop in the mid/high frequencies.
Not as extended as the Hugo

My preference - the BP.

When I got home yesterday I decided to use my Oppo 105D as my DAC, just to reconfirm, or dispel, earlier observations: All the problem files STILL problems, perhaps a tad worse.

Bottom Line:
My suggestions are cheap and easily reversable.

John Swenson
This is an electronics engineer with a very good track record. I linked to a post of his in a post above. The point of that was the widget that he had made using CCTV DC connectors - NOT his observations on 'leakage loops'. I have made and used his widgets on various PSUs and found that it has lowered the noise floor in my system. Again, cheap and easy, but this is electrical and so needs to be handled with respect - bearing in mind how the DC barrel is wired and needs you to use a multimeter to check etc. Handle with care.

Hope you are making progress.

ATB,

M
 
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Mastering is the culprit on the whole, I reckon.
Try Adele, first album. Dire sibilance.
That's a shit record. Try listening to 'The Torture Never Stops' on Zoot Allures by Frank Zappa and revel in the dry smack of his dirty, close miked, mouth.
 


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