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Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part III

Discussion in 'audio' started by Mike42, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. Julf

    Julf Evil brother of Mark V Shaney

    That is not what I read. This is what he wrote:

  2. Errol

    Errol pfm Member

    With a few changes of adjective opinion I will ask again.

    This means that a design deficient amp can have the sound changed by a different mains cable.

    Mr ED.
  3. Julf

    Julf Evil brother of Mark V Shaney

    I think you are missing the word "if" in "If the amp is affected by the difference that a mains cable could cause to the mains conditions then it is deficient in the area of psu, psrr and emc."

    So back to the non sequitur. If an amp is somehow affected by a mains cable, then it is deficient. But just because an amp can be deficient, it doesn't imply that the mains cable does in fact affect it.
  4. davidsrsb

    davidsrsb pfm Member

    Many years ago, I worked with a networking product. We found that using shielded mains cables allowed us to pass the FCC Class B instead of just FCC Class A standard.
    This was actually cheating, because the shielded cable was basically bonding to the metal tables and floor of the test chamber. Real buildings don't have a RF ground to bond to, the earth wire in your mains sockets is hot with RF. Because of this, the use of shielded cables was discouraged.
  5. Errol

    Errol pfm Member

    It also means that the mains cable may or may not affect the amp does it not?
  6. Julf

    Julf Evil brother of Mark V Shaney

    It doesn't really address that. But "X may or may not Y" is of course always true.

    (X) or (not X) = true.
  7. Errol

    Errol pfm Member

    This is also known as a wriggle out. :rolleyes:

    But it's our Mr BE who needs to up front here, or is he out to lunch.
  8. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    Interesting that you think it is not credible (I see you've rowed back from 'obvious' that most people are unaffected) as I would say it is not obvious at all and, instead is highly credible.

    I would suggest that it is possible (perhaps likely) that a sizeable proportion consider themselves immune to this phenomenon whereas in reality they respond much the same as those of us who are aware of this tendency in ourselves, they simply haven’t recognised it. It’s a question of self-awareness, just like the question of acknowledging the susceptibility to unconscious bias in sighted listening tests.

    My suspicion would be that this is a continuum, with ‘totally/highly immune’ as outliers at one end ‘totally/highly susceptible’ as outliers at the other end, and most of us somewhere in the middle zone of the bell curve.

    So much of human behaviour is a continuum, from sexuality, intelligence, emotional intelligence and innumerable other characteristics. My suspicion is that sensual perception in its various forms will be another. Some people are more acutely aware of timing issues when they arise in a music signal, others are more sensitive to pitch than usual, and so-on.

    The 'zen like state' thing is just a device of your own to permit you to indulge in further ridicule. It has never been claimed or suggested and using it undermines your credibility, because if you have inferred that then you have misunderstood, and if you haven't, it is trolling.

    Those on here who say ‘I’ve never perceived this, I therefore discount those who claim they have, as misguided’ would do well to ponder this, IMHO
  9. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    let's take BE & others views as fact for a minute,

    The claim being , if the mains cable improves performance of the amp, the amp has deficiencies the cable rectifies, this is the stance, has been repeated many times here.

    Having in mind you are very happy with your current gear but the mains lead improves matters, which the most viable option available to us.

    As I see it, there are a few options available.

    option 1/ buy a better amp with no guarantee the amp will be immune to such deficiencies, could cost hundreds, could be thousands, no way of knowing until the amp is tested.

    option 2/ search for a second hand option until you finally, after testing each & every amp for said deficiency, you finally find a winner, could cost hundreds, thousands maybe.

    Option 3/ buy a regenerator to rectify the deficiency, hundreds more pounds spent.

    Option 4/ spend £7 on a home made Belden cable as I did & deal with the deficiency this way.
    Obviously all my amps suffer this deficiency, all have been proven to sound better once the cable is inserted so deficiency rectified.

    Option 5/ Do nothing, the amp works fine, deficiency or not with a mind that the amp could be improved for as little as £7.
  10. Julf

    Julf Evil brother of Mark V Shaney

    Just pointing out the faults in your logic.
  11. Julf

    Julf Evil brother of Mark V Shaney

    Sure, but I don't think there are that many of them here.

    I would never assume that just because I don't perceive something, someone else won't be able to perceive it either. I think many of us agree that the people who have perceived a difference in power cables truly have perceived a difference. We just disagree about the causes, and point to both engineering research as to why.
  12. BE718

    BE718 pfm Member

    Its been explained multiple times by multiple people, however there seem to be a couple of posters here who still fail to understand the point.

    Im afraid that guys you just have to accept that the issues in question may well be beyond your understanding. Thats nothing to be ashamed of, but you may need to consider seeking an alternative route to enlightenment than circularly repeating your same responses over and over clearly without progressing your understanding.

    Get the views of whom ever you like, nothing has been posted here regarding this point that is actually technical. Its purely a logical relationship that anyone can understand, .........if they wish to.
  13. BE718

    BE718 pfm Member

    I simply acknowledge that there must be a tiny proportion of people, such as extreme audiophiles, who get themselves worked up into such a tizzy that they are unable to hear properly when asked to listen for differences. Your continuum comments actually go along with this and support whats stated in my post.

    I think the self awareness would be more appropriately framed in the context that the audiophiles such as yourself are the tiny minority that are affected in a stressful way by the thought of having their aural capabilities measured. You get stressed because being an audiophile with exceptional aural capabilities is part of your identity. If that is challenged you are threatened and have an inapropriate stress response.

    Alternatively you just cant hear as well as you think you can and delude yourself into your conclusions about hifi equipment.

    Either way if you are utterly incapable of demonstrating your aural capabilities beyond the comfort of your armchair, why should anyone take you seriously?

    The Zen like state is simply an anology to the oft voiced audiophile view that extended listening and familiarity in stress free environments is required to discern differences. Even if this were true, all it points to is yhe differences are so infinitessimily small that they are unreasonably difficult to discern and as such can only be of significance to an excessively obssessive individual.

    The other upshot of your position is that you assert that no ones aural abilities can be measured as measurement destroys aural acuity. Pathetic nonsense.

    It really isnt a case of dismissing people because one has not experienced something ones self. Its actually a case of, "well based on my technical knowledge this seems unlikely, can you please demonstrate, beyond anecdote, that your experience is real and beyond biased obsessive audiophillia?"

    The moment this happens you go all coy and say " oh no Im too stressed to be tested, its the wtong environment, the test is not sensetive enough, Im having my AMC (audiophile menstrual cycle)"

    You then wonder why people take the piss.
  14. BE718

    BE718 pfm Member

    No I just ignore idiots who have had multiple people explain the point multiple times. :p

    Go round in circles as much as you like, its your own tail you are chasing, which says quite a lot.
  15. adamdea

    adamdea pfm Member

    It did.
  16. BE718

    BE718 pfm Member

    The problem is that you havent actually proven anything.

    Your anecdote is worthless.

  17. BE718

    BE718 pfm Member

    BTW I will be getting my paws on a RF spectrum analyser in a week or so. This means we can actually take a look at whats going on RF wise on the mains
  18. Rockmeister

    Rockmeister pfm Member

    I've removed a post here and am trying to be more constructive elsewhere. Have a look at my mains cable testing scheme if you can find time pls. :)
    Peace and love.
  19. BE718

    BE718 pfm Member

    Whats restricted about it? I am very open to hearing the "proof".

    If someone uses the statement "proven" when they have zero evidence then they are making a worthless statement. I think its more common sense than scientist.

    OK, if it makes you feel better lets ask Rag precisely how he thinks he has "proven" his view.
  20. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    I'd be interested to know the details of how you get on with that, along with results. Trying to measure RF on the mains faces a number of difficulties.

    First, the question of how to do so safely and not electricute yourself or fry the kit, whilst passing though the RF.

    Secondly, how to measure all the various possible modes given 3 wires and some mix of common and difference modes.

    Thirdly, the problem that you'd need some idea of the impedances - e.g. know the current level of the RF as well as the voltages.

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