I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam but I can't find a specific thread... How is it that 40 years ago when there was no digital, every amp came with a phono stage in the price - and now it seems they're so expensive that they have to be provided separately at vast cost. Is there really so much difference between a phono stage in a very good amp you can buy for 400 quid or so from the 70's to a modern separate which costs at least that in addition to your line only amplifier?
Phono stages in 70's amps vs modern outboard
- Thread starter Patcam
- Start date
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
A good question.... Firstly there's the obvious fact that 40 years ago vinyl was the primary source. Everyone had a turntable and so all amps had to have a phono stage. When CD became the primary source most non-audiophiles ditched their turntables and so manufacturers took the opportunity to save some money by not including a phono stage that would have been used by only maybe 1 in 30 of their customers.
Back in the day turntables and cartridges were made in a much wider range of price and quality than today. Cheap TT's such as Pioneer PL12D, Trio KD1033 and even much cheaper and nastier units like Garrard SP25 etc were standard fare. The cartridges used would usually be something of only AT95E quality and moving coil would be unheard of to the non enthusiast. Usually then the built in phono stage would be of "adequate" quality only and be MM only.
When CD took over it polarised the market for the vinyl enthusiast.... you had to be serious about vinyl to want to continue using it and so the few turntables (and separate arms and cartridges still being made) were usually of much better quality and much more expensive than back in the day. Moving coil was now de rigueur for the enthusiast and people wanted to get the best from their vinyl front end and were prepared to pay for it... hence separate phono stages.
Some of the very upmarket Japanese integrated amps (ones that would have been £1000+ in today's money) would of course have had better phono stages than the cheaper amps but usually still MM only and if MC was included it was in a much compromised form...
Back in the day turntables and cartridges were made in a much wider range of price and quality than today. Cheap TT's such as Pioneer PL12D, Trio KD1033 and even much cheaper and nastier units like Garrard SP25 etc were standard fare. The cartridges used would usually be something of only AT95E quality and moving coil would be unheard of to the non enthusiast. Usually then the built in phono stage would be of "adequate" quality only and be MM only.
When CD took over it polarised the market for the vinyl enthusiast.... you had to be serious about vinyl to want to continue using it and so the few turntables (and separate arms and cartridges still being made) were usually of much better quality and much more expensive than back in the day. Moving coil was now de rigueur for the enthusiast and people wanted to get the best from their vinyl front end and were prepared to pay for it... hence separate phono stages.
Some of the very upmarket Japanese integrated amps (ones that would have been £1000+ in today's money) would of course have had better phono stages than the cheaper amps but usually still MM only and if MC was included it was in a much compromised form...
Gromit
Plasticine Dog
Can only speak from my own experiences, but I've had a couple of amps in recent years whose phonostage has easily matched - and in some cases beaten - some reasonably serious stand-alone items.
The MC stage in the Exposure XV sounding better than a Dino2/NCPSU is one example.
The MC stage in my 770ES has also given my Sonneteer Sedley (also a superb phonostage) more than a run for its money.
The MC stage in the Exposure XV sounding better than a Dino2/NCPSU is one example.
The MC stage in my 770ES has also given my Sonneteer Sedley (also a superb phonostage) more than a run for its money.
It would be interesting to compare... for example a Sansui 717 from around 1978 can be had for £300/400 on the second hand market... assuming you wanted to play records, how much more would one have to pay to exceed the quality of this amp and its built in phono stage?
Michael J
pfm Member
Adequate would typically have been specified as post-RIAA-eq output of 20Hz-20KHz +/- 1dB and at least 70dB signal/noise ratio, with less than 0.1% distortion, from about 5mV nominal input. Seeing as we are mostly talking of integrateds, that is the final output after all the rest of the preamp and power stage has been included.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
A quick look at the circuit shows it to have a decent MM only phono stage. Discrete op-amp topology. Implementation is important though so any further comment would be speculation...
Yes, too many variables to make a proper comparison. TBH I'm playing devils advocate here - I would sooner pay for the convenience of something like a Quad Vena or Peachtree or somesuch and invest in a decent external phono stage than go to the hassle of sourcing, servicing, finding room for etc etc an old warrior from the seventies...but it's an interesting option for those with the inclination.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
One needs to remember that a complete re-build with all new top quality caps and every job sorted on an old Jap amp will likely cost the same £300 - £400 as the purchase price of the "old warrior" on ebay...
The only reason I'm not using an old 70's Japanese or American receiver is I need a remote.
Modern Rega amps seem to have great phono stages. Cheaper Japanese amps all come with them, not sure how good they could be. My old Audiolab had a great phono stage too. But the future seem to be integrating DACs like Hegel does, as the norm is digital, analogue will always be a niche market.
Modern Rega amps seem to have great phono stages. Cheaper Japanese amps all come with them, not sure how good they could be. My old Audiolab had a great phono stage too. But the future seem to be integrating DACs like Hegel does, as the norm is digital, analogue will always be a niche market.