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Oh Britain, what have you done (part XXII)?

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MVV said:
Well Timmypops, if you think we are gloomy just take a look at reality:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...dget-zombie-state-civil-war-brexit-fantasists

"Hammond’s talk of our “world-leading” robotics looks plain delusional when you see the graph showing us last – yes, bottom – in robots per manufacturing worker – with Slovenia, Slovakia, Italy, Spain and everyone else miles ahead. BT Openreach has just delayed by another three years its pledge on minimum standard connectivity to all. We are the zombie state.

The OECD’s clinical analysis of the UK shows just how fantastically awry is the vaunting, nationalistic arrogance of our politicians and press. Growth, near the bottom of the league, may see forecasts lowered tomorrow, again. Our under-30s are near the bottom for technical qualifications, with low literacy and numeracy, while our research and development falls below the OECD average. Our low corporation tax encourages companies neither to invest – they sit on shedloads of capital – nor to upskill."

BTW I sincerely hope you are right and the experts are wrong.
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I think the 'hope' of some of the more seriously-minded leave voters is that Brexit will stir some slumbering giants of UK politics to take up the challenge to fix all these things (having blamed the EU, not UK Governments for the situation in the first place).

It may happen. We may cancel HS2 and spend the cash on Broadband where it's really needed. But it's going to take ages. For example, if the 50% of UK vets who are EU citizens dwindles, it will take five years minimum to train new ones. Where will they be trained? How will it be paid for? Who will teach them? Extrapolate this to every part of the economy and society to see the challenge we face.

Doing this while still in the EU makes a lot more sense as we could, say, over a ten year period reduce reliance on EU workers.

This way is just crazy. It's like cutting off an infected limb rather than waiting for the antibiotics to take effect.

I suspect the only way we will manage this is to keep immigration at the same levels for the next ten years or so—that will not please some Brexiteers. If the Gove/Johnson/Mogg get their hands on the tiller though we are mostly fcuked.

Stephen
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I know this is a position often put out there by Brexitiers, but I don't understand the basis for it. A little flesh on the bones of this assertion would be of value to this thread, IMHO, Timola. So if you have anything to add, I for one would be glad to learn what it is.
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Almost every utterance of people like J-C Juncker, Guy Verhofstadt and Martyn Selmayr provides plenty of flesh, and a good amount of fat to boot.

stevec67 said:
I hope that you are right. I wish that I shared your optimism. I don't, and I am preparing the ground to leave the UK if necessary. I don't want to, having lived in Europe I'd rather be in the UK, but I have to make a living.

No, eternumviti is a leaver with a number of cohesive arguments as to why leaving is the best solution.

Compared to Gove, BJ and Davis? Really?
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Thank you, Steve, for the 'cohesive', unexpected!

The trouble is that EV has completely worn himself out over this argument, and has become so disillusioned by the non-choice between the triangular horrors of a May/Johnson/Gove government, a Corbyn/Abbott/McDonnell one, and the EU technocracy, that he is running the risk of collapsing into an extended period of depression. I'm beginning to remember the Cameron/Osborne years as sunlit and happy, so things are clearly very bad!

There is, I have remembered, life beyond this subject, and this thread. Fresh air and leafy autumn walks, and quiet reflection, have been very appealing. Knuckling down to work too. It has been a tough year.
 
stevec67 said:
The German Minister for SomethingOrOther was on R4 this morning even talking about the EU in terms of leaving a club and expecting to retain benefits. Someone should tell Eternum to put him straight.
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Yes, the metaphor is very tired, and completely fails to stand up to even the mildest level of mockery. The trouble is that the metaphors used by both sides are equally tired, and equally obfuscatory.
 
I'm beginning to wonder whether the 'strategy' might just be to wear everybody down to a state of weary exhaustion, so we collectively say something like 'sod it, let's just forget the whole idea, shall we?'

That said, this does suppose that there is any semblance of strategy in anything our 'government' is doing and, if there is, it is remarkably well-hidden.
 
The beginnings of the sounds of disgruntled chiefs in German industry, telling the EU that it is not happy with they way THEY are negotiating might help.
 
MVV said:
Well Timmypops, if you think we are gloomy just take a look at reality:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...dget-zombie-state-civil-war-brexit-fantasists

"Hammond’s talk of our “world-leading” robotics looks plain delusional when you see the graph showing us last – yes, bottom – in robots per manufacturing worker – with Slovenia, Slovakia, Italy, Spain and everyone else miles ahead. BT Openreach has just delayed by another three years its pledge on minimum standard connectivity to all. We are the zombie state.

The OECD’s clinical analysis of the UK shows just how fantastically awry is the vaunting, nationalistic arrogance of our politicians and press. Growth, near the bottom of the league, may see forecasts lowered tomorrow, again. Our under-30s are near the bottom for technical qualifications, with low literacy and numeracy, while our research and development falls below the OECD average. Our low corporation tax encourages companies neither to invest – they sit on shedloads of capital – nor to upskill."

BTW I sincerely hope you are right and the experts are wrong.
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It's hard to accept reality from these sources. The Guardian is an obvious one. It's a newspaper with an agenda. In addition, the OECD's reporting on the UK at the moment is tainted by a touch of lack-of-impartiality. They rely on funding from the UK. And that report is dated post-referendum.

I am an ex-DTI export markets researcher, and suffered 12 tedious years there 2004-2016! Some of my work was reasonably close to some OECD stuff and we shared data. I tried to keep stuff we produced impartial, but could not always because of DTI objectives. I will put a quid on similar stuff going on at OECD.

And for that reason, it does not have enough credibility for me.
 
richgilb said:
The beginnings of the sounds of disgruntled chiefs in German industry, telling the EU that it is not happy with they way THEY are negotiating might help.
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This is what the UK fails to understand—the EU offers so many benefits to German industry that the cohesion of the single market is paramount.

Although the UK may be the largest market for EU goods in some cases, the total sold to rEU is always greater.

Which part would you protect?

Obviously, the ideal would be to sell to the EU with the UK in—but that's no longer an option.

I would expect that EU car makers (for example) in time move their plants to other EU countries. The savings will offset tariffs to the UK—if we can still afford them.

Why would any EU car maker invest in the UK after Brexit? What's the advantage over building new plant in, say, Poland?

However, I guess we may retain them if Gove/Mogg have their way and we become a low-tax, low wage economy.

Stephen
 
Well yes, but that doesn't mean that German businesses are prioritising the UK—just that they'd like the UK to stay in the EU (as any sensible business leader who doesn't make a mint manufacturing outside the UK would too).

When we leave this line of argument will cease, of course.

Stephen
 
MVV said:
Well Timmypops, if you think we are gloomy just take a look at reality:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...dget-zombie-state-civil-war-brexit-fantasists

"Hammond’s talk of our “world-leading” robotics looks plain delusional when you see the graph showing us last – yes, bottom – in robots per manufacturing worker – with Slovenia, Slovakia, Italy, Spain and everyone else miles ahead. BT Openreach has just delayed by another three years its pledge on minimum standard connectivity to all. We are the zombie state.

The OECD’s clinical analysis of the UK shows just how fantastically awry is the vaunting, nationalistic arrogance of our politicians and press. Growth, near the bottom of the league, may see forecasts lowered tomorrow, again. Our under-30s are near the bottom for technical qualifications, with low literacy and numeracy, while our research and development falls below the OECD average. Our low corporation tax encourages companies neither to invest – they sit on shedloads of capital – nor to upskill."

BTW I sincerely hope you are right and the experts are wrong.
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And 33rd out of 35 countries on stillbirths. Hope that EU money will get to the NHS soon...:rolleyes:
 
Meanwhile, back in the minority support zone, Ms Foster goes beyond irony. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42064743

Speaking to BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, Mrs Foster said: "Some people are taking their moment in the sun, to try and get the maximum in relation to the negotiations - and I understand that but you shouldn't play about with Northern Ireland particularly at a time when we're trying to bring about devolved government again."
 
If you actually read what was written in the article, the inference is Germany is looking inward and self-absorbed during this period of instability'.

and just before the above sentence in the article, it says 'You have a normally loud and constructive voice which has been silenced'.

1/10. Must try harder.
 
NeilR said:
If you actually read what was written in the article, the inference is Germany is looking inward and self-absorbed during this period of instability'.

and just before the above sentence in the article, it says 'You have a normally loud and constructive voice which has been silenced'.

1/10. Must try harder.
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Well yes of course, and yes of course and huh? I don't understand what you are getting at.Please elaborate.
 
It is indeed E... I think I've seen them 4 times. I've seen Sigur Ros countless times but they look less cool as an avatar.
 
Arlene sees off the little Free Stater-

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar "should know better" than to "play around" with Northern Ireland over Brexit, the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party says.
(BBC)
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Arlene out of her depth and doesn't realise just how much.She has an unstable, minority Tory government at her back, the Irish have...
 
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