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'Number9' TT AC motor controller web site finally up

A

andyr

Registered User
Well, it's been a long time coming but the web-site for the Number9 "Turntable Control Instrument" AC motor speed controller is finally up. Production release is imminent - but the certification process needs to be completed.

Web-site is: www.9tci.com

This is the more expensive one btw - with a touch screen on the front panel. The cheaper version (no touch screen, so you need to plug in your computer to configure it) - called the "Control Freak" - is next up.


Regards,
Andy
 
Does this controller work with a Thorens TD-124? And is there some sort of mark/sensor that is placed on the turntable to continually measure speed to ensure it's accuracy (i.e. like the Phoenix Roadrunner/Falcon setup)?
 
While I have no idea how good your product sounds, or how well it works with whatever table/set up, I'd like to state loud and clear that the website, the product, and the thinking that went into it all is absolutely stellar.

You've clearly done your homework all the way down the line, I think it's imminently marketable and appears super-professional.

I wish you much luck and success, looks like a superb product.

Can you tell us a bit about your experiences (obviously biased, but I personally don't care) compared to other supplies with whatever tables?

Also if I read it right it's AC only so I'm assuming that you can't do a same-motor compare against a current Radikal'd linn or anything else using a DC motor? Just being sure.
 
yuckyamson said:
While I have no idea how good your product sounds, or how well it works with whatever table/set up, I'd like to state loud and clear that the website, the product, and the thinking that went into it all is absolutely stellar.

You've clearly done your homework all the way down the line, I think it's imminently marketable and appears super-professional.

I wish you much luck and success, looks like a superb product.

Can you tell us a bit about your experiences (obviously biased, but I personally don't care) compared to other supplies with whatever tables?

Also if I read it right it's AC only so I'm assuming that you can't do a same-motor compare against a current Radikal'd linn or anything else using a DC motor? Just being sure.
Click to expand...

Thank you but the designer is Steve Tuckett - I am merely a happy customer (I bought a prototype unit, 18 months ago). I had a Lingo 3 on my deck and I remember after fitting the 'Number9' speed controller - together with a 24v Premotec - that my sound-stage width increased. (The prototype can only handle these 24v motors.)

Then I made use of the motor controller's increased voltage delivery capability and started feeding more voltage to the one motor on my LP12. Steve and I found this extra voltage increased torque/'drive' and improved dynamics.

Then I moved on from the LP12 to my 'SkeletaLinn' and 2 motors ... with a further improvement in dynamics and bass authority.

No, you can't do a same-motor comparison with a Radikal, being for AC motors.


Regards,
Andy
 
andyr said:
Thank you but the designer is Steve Tuckett - I am merely a happy customer (I bought a prototype unit, 18 months ago). I had a Lingo 3 on my deck and I remember after fitting the 'Number9' speed controller - together with a 24v Premotec - that my sound-stage width increased. (The prototype can only handle these 24v motors.)

Then I made use of the motor controller's increased voltage delivery capability and started feeding more voltage to the one motor on my LP12. Steve and I found this extra voltage increased torque/'drive' and improved dynamics.

Then I moved on from the LP12 to my 'SkeletaLinn' and 2 motors ... with a further improvement in dynamics and bass authority.

No, you can't do a same-motor comparison with a Radikal, being for AC motors.


Regards,
Andy
Click to expand...

Will it work with the Thorens TD-124?
 
I see no reason why not (edit: this is wrong - I didn't realise the 124 doesn't use a standard AC motor).

This is a bit like the motor controller I use - but more complex and thorough. Mine also allows the voltage to be adjusted, the speed and also each phase. However, it doesn't allow independent setting for 45 and 33.3, nor the option of a strobe, or a display (mine has to be connected via USB to a computer to adjust it), or the option of running two motors (though personally I wouldn't want to do that anyway). I certainly found my controller to make a very worthwhile improvement and would think this design would also make quite a substantial qualitative improvement too.
 
I'd like to hear this controller compared to a Radikal (albeit different motor, but still) and likewise to a Rega RP-8/10 controller on same motor.

I know someone mentioned "strobe" measurement above but what has to be done in order for the unit to measure the speed? Is there a marker that needs to be applied to the platter somewhere or....???
 
Erocka2000 said:
Will it work with the Thorens TD-124?
Click to expand...

I'm afraid not, for multiple reasons:-

The TD124 uses an induction motor, with an eddy current fine speed control.
It is not a synchronous motor, so having 0.000? frequency accuracy is of no use to you.
In addition the TD124 motor uses more power than this device can provide.

The above two points apply equally to the Garrard 301 and 401, and the Goldring Lenco GL75.

I really cannot see any advantage in the degree of accuracy this device allows;
it is several orders of magnitude higher than any cutting lathe ever made,
snd that's before we take into account any errors of concentricity of the record itself.

It's a bit like using a Rubidium atomic clock for timing a boiled egg :)
 
ralphfcooke said:
I really cannot see any advantage in the degree of accuracy this device allows;
it is several orders of magnitude higher than any cutting lathe ever made,
snd that's before we take into account any errors of concentricity of the record itself.

It's a bit like using a Rubidium atomic clock for timing a boiled egg :)
Click to expand...

It has more to offer than just accuracy, Ralph - so don't get so het up about that aspect. :D

As a Lingo 3 user beforehand, why I shelled out my hard-earned green for the prototype of the Number9 was the ability to easily change its configuration in terms of 2 important factors - neither of which is offered by a Lingo:

1. the speed of rotation of the platter - by changing the Hz going to the motor.

2. the phase angle you select between the red & blue wires - which enables you to minimise the amount which the motor vibrates. (The optimal phase angle is definitely not 90 deg!)

Once I had used #2 ... then two additional factors came into play - which to me are the killer benefits of the Number9, in terms of increased SQ:

3. upping the voltage going to the motor. I am running my 24v (Rega) Premotecs at 30v - which delivers greater drive and authority to the music (than at 24v).
NB: without #2 - which enables motor vibration to be reduced to negligible levels - higher voltages would not be possible, as motor vibration increases as the voltage increases.

4. Running 2 motors. Just as SQ increased as I increased the voltage going to the motor, SQ further increased when I added a 2nd motor. :D But to make 2 motors work optimally, you need to be able to select a phase difference between the 2 motor pulses - this is one of the parameters allowed by the Number9.


Andy
 
Erocka2000 said:
Does this controller work with a Thorens TD-124? And is there some sort of mark/sensor that is placed on the turntable to continually measure speed to ensure it's accuracy (i.e. like the Phoenix Roadrunner/Falcon setup)?
Click to expand...

Couple of questions. Does your 124 have the E50 or the later Papst 3806 motor?
Do you or anyone else here know what the current requirement of the E50 motor is?

The TCI has two calibration modes, a precision strobe system which uses a 3W LED Lamp and pulses @ 50.000hz for 33.3rpm or 67.500Hz for 45rpm, the strobe frequency is accurate to 3ppm (0.0003%). Because we switch the strobe speed we only require one band on the strobe disc which makes a little easier to see what's going on. The other calibration system is the tacho system which is very similar to what Phoenix were doing but because the TCI is a 32bit system versus their 16bit, plus the fact that the ARM processor has full single precision floating math processor (implemented in hardware), I'm to get a way more accurate system (0.0006 rpm).

Both calibration systems can achieve the same absolute accuracy but using the strobe system if you want to get down to the absolute accuacy you'd need to set aside a couple of days. The tacho system is mostly automated and can calibrate boths speeds in a couple of minutes.
 
rn82497 said:
andyr - Which AC motor do you use with your modified LP12? Thanks.
Click to expand...

As Mark said - a 24v Premotec (as used by Rega).

That is because the prototype could only handle that motor ... the production version can drive 16v / 24v / 110v motors, at the very least. :)

Andy
 
ralphfcooke said:
I'm afraid not, for multiple reasons:-

The TD124 uses an induction motor, with an eddy current fine speed control.
It is not a synchronous motor, so having 0.000? frequency accuracy is of no use to you.
In addition the TD124 motor uses more power than this device can provide.

The above two points apply equally to the Garrard 301 and 401, and the Goldring Lenco GL75.

I really cannot see any advantage in the degree of accuracy this device allows;
it is several orders of magnitude higher than any cutting lathe ever made,
snd that's before we take into account any errors of concentricity of the record itself.

It's a bit like using a Rubidium atomic clock for timing a boiled egg :)
Click to expand...

The TD124 is a shaded pole induction motor, yes, and while it's inferior to later synchronous motors particularly in terms of starting torque and being horribly inefficient, its final speed is still directly related the frequency of the driving voltage. So the rpm can be adjusted by adjusting the frequency. Not anything like the degree of precision of later sychros, but big improvments over the stock performance of the deck. If we learned anything during the many listening sessions during the development of Andys SkeletaLinn it was that virtually all of the traditional electromechanical tricks to combat torque ripple, soft belts, friction bearings, high viscosity lubricants produced compression of the audio signal. I see no reason why an eddy braking system wouldn't do the same thing.

The E50 motor is a dinosaur but if the earlier poster is lucky enough to have the later fitted Papst 3806 external rotor 3 phase motor, then that opens a whole other world of possibilities. It's very quiet, bags of torque, no torque ripple. The next thing I'm doing is a three phase output module for the TCI and a three phase motor very much based on the 3806, but tiny. The final motor will be the same mounting footprint as the Premotec but with five times the torque and no ripple.

In the very early days of researching this design I contacted some collegues who were experienced vinyl Mastering Engineers with what I thought was a very simple question. What is the absolute speed accuracy of Neumann 70 cutting lathe? None of them knew. No usable data to be had there. I learnt more by talking to a couple of professional piano tuners and some classical musicians. I opted to chase perfect pitch in a musical sense. Why would you want to add an additional layer on top of any levels of inaccuracy from the lathe?

Steve
 
sorry steve please accept my apology for a stupid question but can you go over the full installation process in terms of the strobe? I'm confused what bits would need to be attached to, say, an LP12 in order to have your system work (presuming you were going to use an existing motor or whatever).
 
We will have to agree to differ it seems as I espouse the use of 'high viscosity lubricants' and can neither hear nor measure any evidence of 'compression' (quite the contrary in fact).
 
My Thorens has the E50 motor. I briefly owned a Phoenix Roadrunner/Eagle (20W version) and tried it with the Thorens. It worked perfectly, with regard to keeping the speed, but I had two issues. One, it renders the strobe lamp in the Thorens useless, as the frequency changes affect the bulb's output. And two, the Eagle had added a ground hum to my system. I wound up returning both the RR and Eagle. It was only later that I realized the ground hum was coming from the Thorens itself, as the plug that Schopper had used was not actually grounded (why the hell would Schopper use that?!). After I changed the plug the ground hum was gone. I wonder if that would have fixed the issue I thought the Eagle had caused. If it did, I may have been able to overlook the strobe issue.

But case in point, it did work with the E50 motor. So I wonder if this new controller would also work, although I imagine the strobe issue would still be present.
 
yuckyamson said:
sorry steve please accept my apology for a stupid question but can you go over the full installation process in terms of the strobe? I'm confused what bits would need to be attached to, say, an LP12 in order to have your system work (presuming you were going to use an existing motor or whatever).
Click to expand...

Steve? I'm just curious as to how your unit is implemented.
 
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