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Kii....the future??

S-Man said:
The 1st order bit is the rolloff at 10Hz. The point of this is not to reproduce super deep bass, it's to reproduce audible bass with minimal phase shift.

The crossover to the KEFs is LR4 (actually it a pair of LR2s but for the sake of discussion let's call it LR4).
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Interesting, LR4 is more like it. Dual opposing drivers?

Maybe we should get back on topic and discuss Kii 3s?
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Sure, I don't mind, but you did bring them up after all claiming they sounded better than the Kii's.
 
Thanks Keith. That would be interesting to do.
My pal with the KEFs has lots of measuring equipment including fancy calibrated B&K mics and a spectrum analyser. I'm sure he intends to improve on our "equalisation by ear" experiments by doing some measurements. I could borrow his kit, but TBH he not the quickest at getting round to things (hope he's not reading this :oops:). OTOH I really don't want to put you out.
 
Strictly Stereo said:
You can still use subs to even out the room response. The Dutch & Dutch 8c and 8m make this especially easy with a dedicated subwoofer output on each speaker and a variety of EQ and filter options.
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The subwoofer output is a great idea. My concern, though, is that it doesn’t look possible to time align the subs from this output with the main speakers. (I’m thinking of delaying the main speakers in relation to the subwoofers so as to account for the location of subwoofers - which are often distant - and in-built group delay of subwoofers.) Have you used the subwoofer output and what was needed to make integration with subs work well? Perhaps it’s not much of an issue if the subwoofer(s) are bought in at a low frequency (as opposed to <80Hz).
 
I haven’t tried it yet but I believe it is possible from the inbuilt EQ, I will check the alternative is to create the delays in say REW then load them the convulver file into say ROON .
Keith
 
aps said:
I’m thinking of delaying the main speakers in relation to the subwoofers so as to account for the location of subwoofers -
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The manual on the website says there are delays, Xover filters, phase inversion, eq etc. all the essentials for seamless sub integration.
 
Purité Audio said:
I haven’t tried it yet but I believe it is possible from the inbuilt EQ, I will check the alternative is to create the delays in say REW then load them the convulver file into say ROON .
Keith
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DNM said:
The manual on the website says there are delays, Xover filters, phase inversion, eq etc. all the essentials for seamless sub integration.
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Is this with the Dutch & Dutch 8c or Kii 3? (I don't see this capability described in the Dutch & Dutch 8c on-line manual.) So we're talking about delaying the main speakers to in relation to the subwoofers.
 
We'll just have to disagree.

Irrespective of price I would not buy a speaker with such a FR.

Strictly Stereo said:
I see some minor irregularities, but certainly nothing troubling and they compare very well with those other models. That "glitch" for example is only really apparent in the 75 degree off axis plot, and even then the affected band is so narrow that it would be inaudible playing music. These are really good measurements, which are all the more impressive when you consider the relatively low price of this model.
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Purité Audio said:
I haven’t tried it yet but I believe it is possible from the inbuilt EQ, I will check the alternative is to create the delays in say REW then load them the convulver file into say ROON .
Keith
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DNM said:
If there are delays for the sub out, the DSP has delays and you must be able to delay the mains. Clarification from a dealer would good though. :)
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Yes, it’d be good to get clarification as my reading was that it was possible to apply this DSP to the sub output no the main speaker. I guess, though, the alternative is to run the speakers with analogue input with time alignment with a subwoofer or few done earlier in the chain. The notion, though, of digital to the speaker with all sub EQ and volume control managed within the speaker is very attractive though.
 
aps said:
Yes, it’d be good to get clarification as my reading was that it was possible to apply this DSP to the sub output no the main speaker. I guess, though, the alternative is to run the speakers with analogue input with time alignment with a subwoofer or few done earlier in the chain. The notion, though, of digital to the speaker with all sub EQ and volume control managed within the speaker is very attractive though.
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There's very little information in the manual, nothing useful on software config. Not being able to delay the mains will severely restrict sub integration in most domestic situations. I can see how the cardoid processing might make it tricky to offer high pass filters on the main speakers but delays should be straight forward. Where are these salesmen?
 
Well, I've listed some of the problems in another post, so I don't consider that the graphs are 'decent enough' when compared to some of the other FR curves that have been linked to earlier in this thread.

Here's another good one: http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/revel_ultima_studio/

Room effects will indeed come into play, mainly below 300 Hz or so. Above that range the speakers intrinsic response and directivity will mainly determine the in-room sound. Floyd Toole's work on this topic is worth reading if you have not already done so.

Yomanze said:
The measurements are decent enough, but consider how speakers might measure well in an anechoic chamber, yet, as Amphion put it, 'have a frequency response like the Swiss alps in-room'.
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Strictly Stereo said:
You can still use subs to even out the room response. The Dutch & Dutch 8c and 8m make this especially easy with a dedicated subwoofer output on each speaker and a variety of EQ and filter options.
Click to expand...

Purité Audio said:
Subwoofer integration and EQ are included and adjustable from the app, the 8C doesn’t need a sub because it is already full range but I Must get around to trying subs destructively .
Keith
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DNM said:
There's very little information in the manual, nothing useful on software config. Not being able to delay the mains will severely restrict sub integration in most domestic situations. I can see how the cardoid processing might make it tricky to offer high pass filters on the main speakers but delays should be straight forward. Where are these salesmen?
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Yes, it'd be great to hear back from the experts on what is, and isn't possible with the Dutch & Dutch 8c EQ. Also, why does cardioid bass have an impact on integration with main speakers?
 
aps said:
Yes, it'd be great to hear back from the experts on what is, and isn't possible with the Dutch & Dutch 8c EQ. Also, why does cardioid bass have an impact on integration with main speakers?
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The cardoid bass dispersal is dependent on the timing of the various drivers of the speaker causing cancellation of the backwards firing bass notes so that all the sound is moving forward and out and not back, so there aren't back wall reflections. I'd assume adding a sub could re-introduce such reflections and defeat the effect of the cardoid bass, if it wasn't fully integrated with the 8c.
 
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The Dutch&Dutch don’t need a sub they are flat to 20Hz but subs can be used destructively to remove standing waves, equalise response across a wider area etc etc.
I will try and post the link to the research by Welti on the issue of multiple subs.
Keith
 
aps said:
Yes, it'd be great to hear back from the experts on what is, and isn't possible with the Dutch & Dutch 8c EQ.
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I can answer this one when I get my pair back or when I have had a chat with the manufacturer (we have a call booked in for the end of this week), whichever comes soonest.
 
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