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Kii....the future??

Yomanze said:
Having owned one of the flattest (on axis and off axis) response speakers available (Amphion Argon3), I don't think it is as vital as phase response. I'd take a bit of frequency anomalies if they meant a more accurate phase / transient response.
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I agree. However I was completely astonished by what a bit of Eq did to the sound of the KEFs. Of course the phase would have been affected as well as the amplitude, maybe it was the phase change that made the difference?
Phase/transient response matters most at LF and that's where my bass extenders are better than almost anything.
 
Re: Subwoofers for the Kii.

It is very likely that this year Kii will introduce a dedicated sub for the Three. The sub will go under the Three and replace the dedicated stand. It will extend the cardiod behaviour to under 100 Hz.
 
al2002 said:
Not sure how you can call this a flat speaker on and off axis. These measurements do not look promising at all:

http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/speakers/amphion_argon3/

TTBOMK, all the data seems to show that that relative to amplitude variations the ear is quite insensitive to phase. Certainly I would not expect phase variations to be audible in a normal listening room with typical hifi speakers.
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What exactly is wrong with these measurements? They look good to me. Granted they are not actually flat off axis, as suggested above.
 
DNM said:
OK, but what are they, subwoofers? And how are they integrated with the LS50's?
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I prefer to use the term bass extenders, but in effect they are stereo subs. What differentiates them from most subs is the way the drive units are driven.
Using electronic correction the lf rolloff frequency and slope can be chosen - mine are set to a 1st order rolloff at 10Hz.
They are integrated with the LS50s via an analogue electronic crossover, but there is no reason this could not be done (probably better) in the digital domain.
 
al2002 said:
Not sure how you can call this a flat speaker on and off axis. These measurements do not look promising at all:

http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/speakers/amphion_argon3/

TTBOMK, all the data seems to show that that relative to amplitude variations the ear is quite insensitive to phase. Certainly I would not expect phase variations to be audible in a normal listening room with typical hifi speakers.
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The measurements are decent enough, but consider how speakers might measure well in an anechoic chamber, yet, as Amphion put it, 'have a frequency response like the Swiss alps in-room'.
 
Strictly Stereo said:
What exactly is wrong with these measurements? They look good to me. Granted they are not actually flat off axis, as suggested above.
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Quite a lot actually. Have a look at the bump starting at 500 Hz. This is surely audible and will colour the sound. The range above 1kHz seems 3 dB too hot. Look at the 'glitch' in the off axis response at approx 800 Hz, xover problem?

For comparison:

NHT Xd: http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/speakers/nht_xd/

KEF 210.2: http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/speakers/kef_201-2/

And in a completely different price range:

Giya: http://www.soundstage.com/index.php...audio-giya-g2-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=18

Magico: http://www.soundstage.com/index.php...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

There are plenty more to look at,
 
S-Man said:
I prefer to use the term bass extenders, but in effect they are stereo subs. What differentiates them from most subs is the way the drive units are driven.
Using electronic correction the lf rolloff frequency and slope can be chosen - mine are set to a 1st order rolloff at 10Hz.
They are integrated with the LS50s via an analogue electronic crossover, but there is no reason this could not be done (probably better) in the digital domain.
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Hmm, unless I'm missing something, I don't understand what 1st order crossover at 10hz does apart from maybe providing a little bass underpinning for the LS50's reflex ports. Did you mean 100hz?
 
al2002 said:
Quite a lot actually. Have a look at the bump starting at 500 Hz. This is surely audible and will colour the sound. The range above 1kHz seems 3 dB too hot. Look at the 'glitch' in the off axis response at approx 800 Hz, xover problem?
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I see some minor irregularities, but certainly nothing troubling and they compare very well with those other models. That "glitch" for example is only really apparent in the 75 degree off axis plot, and even then the affected band is so narrow that it would be inaudible playing music. These are really good measurements, which are all the more impressive when you consider the relatively low price of this model.
 
DNM said:
Hmm, unless I'm missing something, I don't understand what 1st order crossover at 10hz does apart from maybe providing a little bass underpinning for the LS50's reflex ports. Did you mean 100hz?
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Sorry I wasn't clear... the bass system rolls off at the bottom end at 10Hz. The KEFs are crossed at ~100Hz.
 
al2002 said:
It is very likely that this year Kii will introduce a dedicated sub for the Three. The sub will go under the Three and replace the dedicated stand. It will extend the cardiod behaviour to under 100 Hz.
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I would never use that. Given what I am hearing in my ample room at the moment, the walls would be in serious danger of coming down.
 
S-Man said:
Sorry I wasn't clear... the bass system rolls off at the bottom end at 10Hz. The KEFs are crossed at ~100Hz.
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Ah right, that makes more sense. I'm curious to know what type of bass drivers you're using that can sound coherent from 10hz to 500hz? Long throw subs would spoil the lower/mid range using a first order filter at 100hz....
 
DNM said:
Ah right, that makes more sense. I'm curious to know what type of bass drivers you're using that can sound coherent from 10hz to 500hz? Long throw subs would spoil the lower/mid range using a first order filter at 100hz....
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The 1st order bit is the rolloff at 10Hz. The point of this is not to reproduce super deep bass, it's to reproduce audible bass with minimal phase shift.

The crossover to the KEFs is LR4 (actually it a pair of LR2s but for the sake of discussion let's call it LR4).

Maybe we should get back on topic and discuss Kii 3s?
 
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