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Harbeth and Graham and Focal, oh my . . .

nicetone said:
Tuga - I for one appreciate your information on measured performance. Though I hasten to add that much of such ‘raw’ information goes over my head, and I am therefore grateful when others, like you, are able to add comments to suggest what effects the numbers are likely to point to, in usage. I’d like to try to understand what is going on behind what I’m hearing, and it might then help in narrowing down any ‘quest‘ for what I’m after.

I’ve always sought ‘neutrality’ and fatigue free listening at volume levels which do justice to the type of music I’m listening to. There may be different perceptions of neutrality, but in my case, the relatively recent realisation is that measurements can point to kit which is going to best reproduce the original signal without adding or subtracting anything.

On the other thread started by plimpington2, there was a post of a YouTube vid comparing Harbeth SHL5plus and 30.1 using a Dire Straits track. I have that album, though I haven’t listened to it for about 20 years. There’s not much dynamic range in the track used, and to me the sound was flat, smooth, both speakers sounding the same (sure, the limitations of the sound from the video wouldn’t have helped), but probably neutral (true to the recording). If that was the type of music I mainly listened too, I might want kit that would add some life and ‘rawness’ to it, akin to a live rock performance perhaps. ’Benign distortion’ on rock music might add to the ‘realness’ of the sound, but personally, for the type of music I now mainly listen to, I don’t want that. So, I am interested in measured performance, or at least the comments from those who can provide some interpretation of it for me! Cheers.
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Here's a Youtube video that will help you understand loudspeaker measurements:

 
Elephantears said:
My room is very awkward due to the positioning of two doors, which makes it very difficult indeed to set up a near-field listening triangle. I found that the SHL5Plus were spectacular when I got then into a near-field triangle, pulling them far out in to the room. However I couldn't leave them in that position, since they were vulnerable to being bashed by a door opening. I considered a set up where I pulled them in to the room for intensive listening, then pushed them back after the session, but after a week I realised that was just too much trouble. So sadly I decided to part with them soon after I'd found their optimum position. I'm really just writing this to say that they can work extremely well in a small to medium room, but I think you need to give them the space they want to hear their best. It's also worth pointing out that I know of others with smaller rooms than mine who are delighted with the 5Plus; for example Alan B on the Wam, who has them firing across his room on either side of a bay window. This was another position that I was denied because of the placement of my other door. Doors, damn them all, is my conclusion.
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Room about 24 by 16, speakers on long wall. How far out does front of SHL5Plus need to be from wall behind ? If speakers were 8-9ft apart would you recommend 8-9ft listening distance ?
 
wacko said:
Room about 24 by 16, speakers on long wall. How far out does front of SHL5Plus need to be from wall behind ? If speakers were 8-9ft apart would you recommend 8-9ft listening distance ?
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Your room is a great size for them; perfect. You won't need to leave much space behind them at all, because you won't be anywhere near corners. The only reason I needed to pull them out from the wall behind was to get them away from corners. If you give them more space behind you will get more soundstage depth, but it won't be necessary.

If you like an equilateral triangle they will work very well like that. I like to be a little bit further away from the speakers than the distance between them, but its personal preference here. In a near-field set up I do like an equilateral triangle and the 5Plus are an amazing open window in that set up.
 
Thank you very useful: so a couple of feet out from the wall would do. One last question: do you imagine 70 Naim watts (perhaps the new Uniti Star) will do them justice ? I agree I like to be slightly further away than distance between speakers but SWMBO might not agree to a complete destruction of the furniture layout.

That would leave just one last problem: SHL5+ or DeVore O96: nice problem...
 
wacko said:
Thank you very useful: so a couple of feet out from the wall would do. One last question: do you imagine 70 Naim watts (perhaps the new Uniti Star) will do them justice ? I agree I like to be slightly further away than distance between speakers but SWMBO might not agree to a complete destruction of the furniture layout.

That would leave just one last problem: SHL5+ or DeVore O96: nice problem...
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The Harbeth is more accurate but you may not like it as much for some reason. You'll have to listen.
 
wacko said:
Thank you very useful: so a couple of feet out from the wall would do. One last question: do you imagine 70 Naim watts (perhaps the new Uniti Star) will do them justice ? I agree I like to be slightly further away than distance between speakers but SWMBO might not agree to a complete destruction of the furniture layout.

That would leave just one last problem: SHL5+ or DeVore O96: nice problem...
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Yes, a couple of feet will be plenty. You'd be fine with 1 foot in a room of that size. And a 70W Naim amp will be absolutely plenty. Although my favourite amps were more powerful, I used Naim in the past, and lots of dealers use Naim as an ideal match with Harbeths. It's a good synergy, as they balance out each other in a yin/yang way. I can't imagine the Naim working with the 096 though, although as I mentioned in another thread, John Devore does sometimes uses Naim with his Gibbon models.

As Tuga says, the LS3/6 are also well worth auditioning. I liked them a lot.
 
Elephantears said:
My room is very awkward due to the positioning of two doors, which makes it very difficult indeed to set up a near-field listening triangle. I found that the SHL5Plus were spectacular when I got then into a near-field triangle, pulling them far out in to the room. However I couldn't leave them in that position, since they were vulnerable to being bashed by a door opening. I considered a set up where I pulled them in to the room for intensive listening, then pushed them back after the session, but after a week I realised that was just too much trouble. So sadly I decided to part with them soon after I'd found their optimum position. I'm really just writing this to say that they can work extremely well in a small to medium room, but I think you need to give them the space they want to hear their best. It's also worth pointing out that I know of others with smaller rooms than mine who are delighted with the 5Plus; for example Alan B on the Wam, who has them firing across his room on either side of a bay window. This was another position that I was denied because of the placement of my other door. Doors, damn them all, is my conclusion.
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Doors surely pose quite a bit of a problem in you case which is unfortunate. Anyway it's good to hear that you find the SHL5 Plus to work very well in small to medium-sized rooms but it's true that they appreciate some space to sound their best. Wish you the best of luck in finding the ideal speaker in your room. It would be interesting to know which speaker will eventually give you more enjoyment than the Harbeth without the doors ruining the experience in terms of speaker placement.
 
wacko said:
Thank you very useful: so a couple of feet out from the wall would do. One last question: do you imagine 70 Naim watts (perhaps the new Uniti Star) will do them justice ? I agree I like to be slightly further away than distance between speakers but SWMBO might not agree to a complete destruction of the furniture layout.
Elephantears said:
Your room is a great size for them; perfect. You won't need to leave much space behind them at all, because you won't be anywhere near corners. The only reason I needed to pull them out from the wall behind was to get them away from corners. If you give them more space behind you will get more soundstage depth, but it won't be necessary.

If you like an equilateral triangle they will work very well like that. I like to be a little bit further away from the speakers than the distance between them, but its personal preference here. In a near-field set up I do like an equilateral triangle and the 5Plus are an amazing open window in that set up.
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That would leave just one last problem: SHL5+ or DeVore O96: nice problem...
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With respect to distance of speakers from the front wall, my opinion is you need to try it and see for yourself. I currently have the SHL5 Plus in a large room with the side walls out of sight (no corners to speak, speakers are basically in free space) but I still prefer the speakers to come out from the front wall by more than 2 feet, about 3 feet to be exact. The distance between the front wall and speaker will not only affect soundstage depth but bass quality and a bit of the midrange. Basically a thicker or fuller bass and midrange with speakers closer to the wall and a thinner and lighter presentation with the speakers further away from the wall.
 
Elephantears said:
Yes, a couple of feet will be plenty. You'd be fine with 1 foot in a room of that size. And a 70W Naim amp will be absolutely plenty. Although my favourite amps were more powerful, I used Naim in the past, and lots of dealers use Naim as an ideal match with Harbeths. It's a good synergy, as they balance out each other in a yin/yang way. I can't imagine the Naim working with the 096 though, although as I mentioned in another thread, John Devore does sometimes uses Naim with his Gibbon models.

As Tuga says, the LS3/6 are also well worth auditioning. I liked them a lot.
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O96 doesn't need 70w although its efficiency may be overstated. I like the idea of the Naim Star so I finally get around to ripping some CDs and I want internet radio. Will be hard to hear Naim and O96. I guess Graham 5/8 is also in the frame. Quite a lot of downloaded music will be played in that room so want very good speakers that emphasise what is right rather than what is wrong which leads me back towards O96...
 
Line Magnetic seems to be a common pairing with the Devore Orangutans in the States. Is that something you can audition?
 
Elephantears said:
Line Magnetic seems to be a common pairing with the Devore Orangutans in the States. Is that something you can audition?
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Yes I know about LM, and I do usually prefer tubes. But in this room I wanted an easy to use compact setup with internet radio. I am concerned SHL5+ will be too polite for some music: I like a fast, 'alive' sound.
Maybe I just use IPhone=>Mojo=>LM=>O96. Although I have not tried Internet Radio on an IPhone yet, and my downloads have been standard Apple store so far.
A new, more expensive, O96 is coming next year which may change my options as I do not want to spend more. If I am 'over-egging' the speakers (in terms of source/room or if price goes up) it might be better to use something like Graham 5/9.
Anyway thank you for helping me think out loud ! Decision time is about 6 months away.
 
shl5+ is not extremely polite. it strikes a more laid back sound but not dull at all. its a amazing loudspeaker. it sounds just right. my graham and my shl5+ in a direct ab comparison sounds very alike, its almost the same sound. its not like a night and day difference, its very similar both in terms of detail retrieval, tonality, bass, imaging.

its not like comparing kef ls50 to P3ESR where the difference is automatically very severe.
 
Thanks AK. I do have P3ESR on a Naim Unitilite and they sound great so I will listen to SHL5+ on a Naim Star when it is released.
 
to add to this thread, after many months living with both the Graham ls5/9 and the SHL5+, I find the difference between the two speakers are minimal.
The graham feature the BBC dip: my measurements show -3db dip between 1.7khz to 3khz, the harbeth are flat in that region. Myself being a neutral freak, I prefer to have a flat presence region.

At the end, the added bass of the shl5+ combined with a slightly more refined midrange wins me over the graham. The graham have a "tighther" bass and more refined treble imo but I find the harbeth have some sort of magic in the mid and music sounds more like a whole where the graham is slightly more "clinical", the attack is better defined on the graham and honestly sometime I prefer the graham sometimes the harbeth. Could live perfectly happy with both and at the end its really the added bass that wins me over as I really dont think the shl5+ needs a sub but the ls5/9 kinda do.
I also find the shl5+ more forgiving to bad recordings, and since I listen to a lot of modern stuff, the shl5+ are more suited for me.

but really, I cannot understand someone liking the Graham for example but disliking the Harbeth, they are very similar in timbre, imaging, detail retrieval, bass performance. They play in the same "league".
 
Ayya Khema said:
but really, I cannot understand someone liking the Graham for example but disliking the Harbeth, they are very similar in timbre, imaging, detail retrieval, bass performance. They play in the same "league".
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I recently changed from Rogers LS7T to SHL5+, and also find the differences to be far more subtle than I was expecting.
 
seems to be a lot of people buying harbs , for a little business they really are churning them out . clever marketing ploy bringing out the anniversary editions !!
 
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