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Challenge From Harbeth - Free M40.1 For Those Who Can Identify Amplifier Differences

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Seems like a marketing ploy to me....

I.e. generate lots of forum noise by offering a challenge. If it costs him a pair of speakers (at manu cost) and he sells an extra 10 sets at trade he'll probably be be quite happy.
 
no, it just means if we make amps sound the same they sound the same.
Thats not rocket science...
Audio is not rocket science. Much less quantum physics.
Most importantly, I think you've put the cart before the horse (sorry, I'm on glass 2 of the wine, so a logical description will have to wait until the morning)
 
no, it just means if we make amps sound the same they sound the same.
Thats not rocket science...

The issues should be, can we make amps sound different, and if so, are there circumstances in which those difference would serve a purpose

But why should you want to do that?

You can certainly make amplifiers that sound different to each other*, but that's a very, very blunt and crude form of tone control. Tone controls are supposed to be bad, aren't they?
It has been possible over the past four decades, and in recent years for very little money, to build amplifiers that compare with straight wire. Amplifiers that don't conform to this degree of audible transparency are simply exhibiting different degree of 'wrong'. Preferring something that isn't transparent is fine, but lets at least recognise what's going on.

If you want to change sound without changing loudspeaker or room conditions, do it properly and with the appropriate degree of control by using EQ.



* Google the Bob Carver amplifier challenge. BC was given access to a well liked, expensive tube audiophile amplifier and then left for a few days to adapt one of his modestly priced amplifiers to sound the same by manipulating the performance. Note, actually changing the measured performance.
 
I'd be up for the test but not using a comparator switch box. Switching back in for between amps during a song doesn't allow you to hear the same passage of music on each amp. I would want to listen to ten second passages on one amp a few times and then play the same passage on the other amp. Those conditions would make for a more useful experiment for me. I'd also want control of the system setup and room conditions and source equipment/software.
 
I'd be up for the test but not using a comparator switch box. Switching back in for between amps during a song doesn't allow you to hear the same passage of music on each amp. I would want to listen to ten second passages on one amp a few times and then play the same passage on the other amp. Those conditions would make for a more useful experiment for me. I'd also want control of the system setup and room conditions and source equipment/software.

They also introduce known problems with human short term memory.
However, so long as there were enough repetitions and the order of play varied, it should even out well enough.

It would make the test harder for the listener, but Alan would still win.
 
Seems like a marketing ploy to me....

I.e. generate lots of forum noise by offering a challenge. If it costs him a pair of speakers (at manu cost) and he sells an extra 10 sets at trade he'll probably be be quite happy.

It is a fake scam if you managed to get onto the website and click anything then you are now infected, well not you personally, just your pc.
 
But why should you want to do that?

You can certainly make amplifiers that sound different to each other*, but that's a very, very blunt and crude form of tone control. Tone controls are supposed to be bad, aren't they?
It has been possible over the past four decades, and in recent years for very little money, to build amplifiers that compare with straight wire. Amplifiers that don't conform to this degree of audible transparency are simply exhibiting different degree of 'wrong'. Preferring something that isn't transparent is fine, but lets at least recognise what's going on.

If you want to change sound without changing loudspeaker or room conditions, do it properly and with the appropriate degree of control by using EQ.

I get your points but amps dont exist in isolation, they still need to deal with a variety of loudspeaker designs, input levels and power levels, not as simple as straight wire and just EQ'ing stuff
 
But why should you want to do that?

You can certainly make amplifiers that sound different to each other*, but that's a very, very blunt and crude form of tone control. Tone controls are supposed to be bad, aren't they?
It has been possible over the past four decades, and in recent years for very little money, to build amplifiers that compare with straight wire. Amplifiers that don't conform to this degree of audible transparency are simply exhibiting different degree of 'wrong'. Preferring something that isn't transparent is fine, but lets at least recognise what's going on.

If you want to change sound without changing loudspeaker or room conditions, do it properly and with the appropriate degree of control by using EQ.

I get your points but amps dont exist in isolation, they still need to deal with a variety of loudspeaker designs, input levels and power levels, not as simple as straight wire and just EQ'ing stuff
 
It doesn't read like a marketing ploy or anything like that to me - more like an engineer fed up with people believing something he knows to be untrue, and willing to put in his time and money to prove them wrong. Fair play to him.

Ideally, he should be charging an entry fee, then he could turn this into an extremely nerdy version of excalibur. And wouldn't the speakers be worth more than retail if someone won this, given they'll be a spoil of war in the battle between the mystical energies brigade versus those pesky puritanical scientists? If someone will pay £15k for a cable, surely they'll pay big bucks for a trophy like this!
 
They also introduce known problems with human short term memory.
However, so long as there were enough repetitions and the order of play varied, it should even out well enough.

It would make the test harder for the listener, but Alan would still win.

If the test is carried out properly there should be no memory involved.

You should just make some succinct statements about sound quality each time you hear an extract.

Then after wards your statements can be tallied against each amp to see if there is a pattern.

Using memory or a guess the amp game would give erroneous results as it would be based on preconceptions that may or may not be true.
 
If the test is carried out properly there should be no memory involved.

You should just make some succinct statements about sound quality each time you hear an extract.

Then after wards your statements can be tallied against each amp to see if there is a pattern.

Using memory or a guess the amp game would give erroneous results as it would be based on preconceptions that may or may not be true.

time to put your money were your mouth is.....
 
It doesn't read like a marketing ploy or anything like that to me - more like an engineer fed up with people believing something he knows to be untrue, and willing to put in his time and money to prove them wrong. Fair play to him.

I totally agree, especially, having spoken with him in the past.

Maybe, he also thinks that it is the speakers that are the component that counts.
 
You can certainly make amplifiers that sound different to each other*,

I'd be interested to know what you make of Naim model where you can run one of their pre amps without regulated power supplies or with (multiple) regulated PSUs or even third party (lower noise) PSUs?

Do you count them as all being transparent and essentially identical or as some having more or less 'character'/distortion depending on the configuration?
 
I'm happy to provide a Linn Klimax amp. Perhaps someone could provide a Naim 250, and someone else a valve amp. That would be fair, I don't think this should be about tricking a win. If someone else could assist with the switching and level station then I guess we're good to go. I'm happy for the others to take the speakers if they wish, I'm just interested in the outcome.
 
I think the problem with a valve amp is the output impedance. Most valve amps have an output impedance of anything up to 4-5 ohms, some higher, a very few go down around 1 ohm. With a loudspeaker load, unless the loudspeaker's impedance characteristic is flat, like the KEF104/2, 107 etc which had a flat 4 ohm impedance, the resulting frequency response variation when compared with a SS amplifier, could be more or less easily audible.

Also with a valve amplifier, the distortion is generally considerably higher, especially at the frequency extremes such that again, this could be audible when compared with a SS amplifier.

Perhaps the Linn Klimax, Naim 250 and a Quad 405.2 or 606? (or a Behringer A500?)

S.
 
I will propose to do this test with my Unico Pre/DM and a pair of Croft amps; both are valve/mosfet hybrids so I can't be accused of making things easier for myself.

As I've said before, I will need assistance with switching, but I am going to write to Harbeth to propose a method that doesn't need complex devices. I will post again when I have a response.
 
Perhaps the Linn Klimax, Naim 250 and a Quad 405.2 or 606? (or a Behringer A500?)

So basically you'd insist on nobbling it to a load of similarly powered class AB solid state amps, rather than the type of kit Harbeth are actually partnered with in the real world? I'd far prefer to take the gauntlet as thrown, and if one searches the web for reviews (user or professional) of Harbeth speakers they can be found on the end of Leben, Croft, Audio Research, Sugden, Naim etc. That's certainly more the type of list I'd be interested in hearing as they each represent a different yet perfectly valid approach to amp design.
 
So basically you'd insist on nobbling it to a load of similarly powered class AB solid state amps, rather than the type of kit Harbeth are actually partnered with in the real world? I'd far prefer to take the gauntlet as thrown, and if one searches the web for reviews (user or professional) of Harbeth speakers they can be found on the end of Leben, Croft, Audio Research, Sugden, Naim etc. That's certainly more the type of list I'd be interested in hearing as they each represent a different yet perfectly valid approach to amp design.

I think Serge wants you to lose.
 
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