cartridge loading

[Elephantears]

My Benz Ebony liked 220 (a Naim plug) and sounded disengaged at 100.

That's exactly what I found when I borrowed a Benz from Banjoman. I had a Trilogy stage then and lots of options. I remember on the Wam those mouthy folks always used to say that Benz carts were rolled off, and I've said it so many times; of course they are if you load them at 100 Ohms.

I said this on a previous thread that Rockmeister started too, which is why I am so incredulous that he is buying carts without working out if they match the loading options on his stage. I always said he should have kept his Benz and got a phono stage to match. Or kept his Cadenza Black and got a stage to match. But no, the merry go round continues...

In spite of this talking to a brick wall feeling, the fault also lies heavily with cartridge manufacturers. Why are Benz so vague about loading in the specs they give? Are they afraid of putting people off when they only have a 100 Ohm option?

I can say the same for Miyajima, and here I come to a personal gripe. I bought a Miyajima cart because according to the specs on their website, it should have been a perfect match for the Hashimoto SUT I was using; just above 100 Ohms. Yes, it sounded good, but I knew it wasn't reaching its full potential; it was missing that last bit of HF energy (although in most areas, I must admit, it did still sound great).

I sent the Miyajima back to the manufacturer soon after because the cantilever was not perfectly aligned. They sent it back, as good as new, with a new set of instructions. Now they have amended their recommendation to a higher figure - about 250 Ohms. I was stunned, because I would never have bought the cartridge if I'd known that. I just didn't have a phono stage with that option.

The Miyajima is stil sitting in its box actually, until I get over the chip on my shoulder about the loading misinformation. But I do think tha both manufacturers and dealers really need to properly educate people about cartridge loading, because it is absolutely essential to getting the best of MC carts.

 

[Mike Reed]

Well, Andrew; that was said with heartfelt experience ! You surprise me about the Miyajima (which one, b.t.w.). A local dealer friend brought his Shilabe round to play through my then Naim kit just over a year ago. He used his Thorens TD124 and ? arm through my Superline against my Urushi on my deck. Not a real comparison, but it would have been through my 100 ohm loading plug, and the Shilabe sounded excellent; very similar to my Urushi, in fact. There were a few others listening as well.

I'm tempted to try the Shilabe (which he still has), on my Ace Anna over Xmas. Mind you. as far as loading's concerned, my E.A.R, on-board stages are really adjusted by ear, and the resistance figures are different (matching the internal impedance of the cart.) so I've no idea how or if they correlate with the usual external loading figures.

Yes, upper level m/c cart's are very sensitive to resistance, as I found out a number of times. Even 100 ohms can be the difference between 'very good' and 'breathtaking'. It's the latter than turns me on. There is a case for CD, y'know.

 

[misterdog]

I think it runs deeper than just getting the loading right.

The phono stage its self is applying a higher % gain than the power amp does yet is often relegated to a relatively cheap bolt on design.

My phono stage allows for 'plug in' resistors, and has taken many attempts to perfect the correct value, changing the value in 10 Ohm steps.

 

[Elephantears]

Well, Andrew; that was said with heartfelt experience ! You surprise me about the Miyajima (which one, b.t.w.). A local dealer friend brought his Shilabe round to play through my then Naim kit just over a year ago. He used his Thorens TD124 and ? arm through my Superline against my Urushi on my deck. Not a real comparison, but it would have been through my 100 ohm loading plug, and the Shilabe sounded excellent; very similar to my Urushi, in fact.

Yes, that would be Hugo. He actually recommends 160 Ohms for Miyajima. Mine is the Takumi, and I bought it from Hugo. It does indeed sound superb at 100, but it really frustrates me that I wasn't hearing it absolutely at its best, for the following reason. A while ago I was using a Grado Statement Reference. I thought it was fantastic, especially through the Trilogy 907 I had at the time. There was just this one slight limitation; trumpets didn't have bite and reach. So, for example, I'd heard Freddie Hubbard's wonderful solos on 'Maiden Voyage' on another system with a Cadenza Black through the Trilogy 907; there was amazing life and vibracny to th brass instruments. That's what I was missing. That was the only reason I sold the Grado, and I believe that if you can live without that last ounce of HF reach, the Wood Bodied Grados are a fantastic buy (the best under £1000, in my experience, except pehaps for the ART9). I'm actually using a modified Grado Reference Master at the moment.

So, the reason I am frustrated is that I've gone on this long post-Grado journey, to end up with another superb cartridge, which has exactly the same limits, when used at 100 Ohms. I'm convinced that 160-180 Ohms would redress that balance and bring Freddie Hubbard out of his shell, but that's a tricky loading level to achieve.

 

[Elephantears]

Going back to the OP. Why, exactly, did you not buy an ART9?

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I think it runs deeper than just getting the loading right.

The phono stage its self is applying a higher % gain than the power amp does yet is often relegated to a relatively cheap bolt on design.

My phono stage allows for 'plug in' resistors, and has taken many attempts to perfect the correct value, changing the value in 10 Ohm steps.

Yep, for an MC stage we are talking X1500 or so and for a power amp X30.

 

[jy3]

I'm happy with the Luxman 505's MM/MC stage and don't really want extra boxes, and certainly not the expense of a better phono stage BUT, I read that my new Dynavector 'likes to see' >47k ohms loading tho dynavector suggest >30 ohms, and Luxman quote 100ohms for the phono stage. Is this ok, and if not, how can I experiment cheaply with adjusting the loading? I'm not great at soldering thingies between other thingies...some kind of switching box maybe??
Ta.

Just use the your Dynavector through the MC stage of your amp. Luxman know more about making phono stages than many so called experts on forums. "I read my new Dynavector likes to see 47k" doh.

 

[dudywoxer]

I would have thought that a 47k figure would only apply to a high output MC, so a 10x5 or a DV 20 H.

 

[Rockmeister]

Going back to the OP. Why, exactly, did you not buy an ART9?

I said this on a previous thread that Rockmeister started too, which is why I am so incredulous that he is buying carts without working out if they match the loading options on his stage. I always said he should have kept his Benz and got a phono stage to match. Or kept his Cadenza Black and got a stage to match. But no, the merry go round continues...

In spite of this talking to a brick wall feeling, the fault also lies heavily with cartridge manufacturers. Why are Benz so vague about loading in the specs they give? Are they afraid of putting people off when they only have a 100 Ohm option?

Gosh. Do you mean to sound quite so rude and patronising?
I'm very tempted into a reply in similar style but, moving on...

Art9? When did I suggest I might? In any case, I don't buy what I haven't heard and therefore, that is one reason.

As to your incredulity, you assume that I took some notice of the post you mention. Well I did, but if you re-read that thread and add in this one, you will note diverse opinions, as I posted above. I do remember you from the Wam of course but have sadly failed to attribute enough status to your opinions. My apologise. The consensus is in fact that 100 ohms should be fine, and I had already discussed this very thing with others elsewhere who concurred, but when I had played the cartridge for 20 hours I reset it as I always do,and re read all I could find I recalled the 47ohm article. As in the OP, it occured to me that a small, cheap switching box would be useful to many vinyl enthusiasts, allowing harmless experiment, so I started this thread.

If you are going to reply, would you mind very much not being quite so rude? Thanks.

 

[Rockmeister]

Just use the your Dynavector through the MC stage of your amp. Luxman know more about making phono stages than many so called experts on forums. "I read my new Dynavector likes to see 47k" doh.

I am. But different cartridges do perform differently under different loadings, hence the idea of a simple adjustable box of tricks.

 

[Rockmeister]

I would have thought that a 47k figure would only apply to a high output MC, so a 10x5 or a DV 20 H.

It's a common load for MM's too.

 

[Rockmeister]

If you want to increase resistance you can use plugs, I think. And if you can solder phono connections you can make the plugs yourself, cheaply and easily. You wouldn’t have to take a soldering iron to the amp.

Here’s a guide, I’m sure there are better ones but Google rate it:

https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/cartridge-loading-plugs_topic1246.html

I think there are commercially available kits as well.

Thank you.

 

[Rockmeister]

Didn't know Luxman made s/s amp's ; thought they were known for valves. I had a lovely LUX amp. in 1970 (s/s) Was this the forerunner of Luxman?

Re. your cart., I find it hard to believe that a low figure of 37 ohms is recommended, as very few stages can be adjusted much below 100 ohms. Generally, the lower the figure, the less high frequencies (and probably more 'bass and it can become a bit slow and 'ploddy', The higher you go in resistance (impedance?) the more air (as said above) and accentuation of upper frequencies. As I said, the default number is 100 because most m/coils work pretty well at that.

My K (as do all Ks) likes 100; at 200 it doesn't sound balanced. My Benz Ebony liked 220 (a Naim plug) and sounded disengaged at 100. My Transfig. likes 100. My previous Lyras preferred between 400 and 500. Many's the time I've wondered what on Earth was wrong with my front end with the K and Benz in. Sure enough, I'd forgotten to change resistive caps in the Superline from 100 to 220 and vice versa.

Thanks for the info...I get it now
Here's the link to dynavectors spec sheet, re the suggested loading.
http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/e_20x2.html
they quote 2 figures for the High/Low versions, >1000 and >30... I was assuming that we should read left to right in both cases but now, I have a horrible suspicion that.....???

I have just emailed Dynavector.

 

[jy3]

I am. But different cartridges do perform differently under different loadings, hence the idea of a simple adjustable box of tricks.

You think you will be able to hear the difference between 30 and 100ohm golden ears. lol
As to your above post Dynavector seem to be saying its ok to use any loading between 1000 and 30ohm.

Buying a new phono stage with different loading option may well be better, but it will most likely be the phono stage is better. Are you happy with the sound you have now?

 

[dudywoxer]

I was going by you asking about MC carts,

t's a common load for MM's too.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

All MM's are designed to operate into the internationally standardised 47K load and therefore all MM inputs on amps or phono stages are 47K.

High output MC's are designed to work into a MM input on an amp or phono stage and are therefore intended to work into 47K.

Low output MC's usually like a load of somewhere between 100R and 1K (ie 100 to 1000 Ohms) and most non switchable MC inputs will be in this range with 100R being about the most popular. Naim and Linn used to use 470R as the load and I've seen some amps which use 1K but as I said, 100R is the most common.

 

[Mike Reed]

As Jez says above. Your linked specs for you DV cart. are anything above 30 and below 1000 ohms (pretty wide range but they can't be specific, I s'pose.) 100 ohms will then be fine. It may not be perfect, but (it seems that) it's all you've got. Output is 0.3 mV, which is a bit on the low the low side, but your Luxman circuitry should cope with this without having to jack the vol. control up too much.

If it sounds good, it IS good ! You haven't (as far as I can see) said what it DOES sound like, as with 20+ hours on it, you should be getting at least a flavour of what the DV can do.

 

[misterdog]

Cartridge loading kit.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/6...no_Resistor_Loading_Kit-Turntable_Accessories

 

[Rockmeister]

Cartridge loading kit.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/6...no_Resistor_Loading_Kit-Turntable_Accessories

perfect, good find!

 

[Rockmeister]

the link I posted shows the specs for BOTH the high, and th low output version of the cartridge. I assume that one of the figures refers to one of those and the other to the other?

I don't know if I'll hear a change between 30 and 100 as I've not yet tried When you read stuff that implies that a change of 20 ohms is audible, then 'golden ears' or not, it makes me wonder.
As to what DOES it sound like, after some mucking about with VTA I've got clean bass, and extended but not sharp top end, BUT I don't have the new speakers yet (being made) so am listening through my old KEF iQ30's, and they are not THAT revealing.