Beolab 50 - addressing the speaker/room interface.
- Thread starter Jonboi
- Start date
iansr
pfm Member
Might require a separate thread for that answer
😁
Well to name just a few of the more recent ones: Quad 57s, Quad 989s, ER Audio Acorns, Geddes Abbeys.
There are a few people over on the Lansing Heritage forum who cloned the M2s, but I understand that it is no longer possible because to stop that happening JBL will not sell you the drivers unless you can prove you already own the speakers.
Space is the Place
pfm Member
Yeah all the bits were for sale right down to the terminals at that speaker parts place in the States.
How do you find them compared to your electrostatic experiences? I've never tried any. The Geddes also look interesting. Why have you gone the horn compression driver way? Is it because they sound natural and lack dynamic compression, i got incredible imaging with the Array horns turned Vertically.
Apologies for going off topic here, i know its a B&O thread, i think there is a B&O dealer in Wilmslow not far from here, as i spied the speakers that have the acoustic lenses through the window while i was waiting at the lights. (although i suspect if i did go, me not turning up in a Ferrari or Lamborghini they wouldn't let me in).
How do you find them compared to your electrostatic experiences? I've never tried any. The Geddes also look interesting. Why have you gone the horn compression driver way? Is it because they sound natural and lack dynamic compression, i got incredible imaging with the Array horns turned Vertically.
Apologies for going off topic here, i know its a B&O thread, i think there is a B&O dealer in Wilmslow not far from here, as i spied the speakers that have the acoustic lenses through the window while i was waiting at the lights. (although i suspect if i did go, me not turning up in a Ferrari or Lamborghini they wouldn't let me in
).
iansr
pfm Member
Electrostatics do something special. They have an openness and sense of air that I don't think even the best pistonic driver based speakers can match. On the other hand, whilst something like the Quad 989s can go down to 40hz the bass is never going to be as articulate and well defined as that produced by a large diameter woofer. I'd also say that ESLs can't match the dynamism of a really good traditional speaker.Yeah all the bits were for sale right down to the terminals at that speaker parts place in the States.
How do you find them compared to your electrostatic experiences? I've never tried any. The Geddes also look interesting. Why have you gone the horn compression driver way? Is it because they sound natural and lack dynamic compression, i got incredible imaging with the Array horns turned Vertically.
Apologies for going off topic here, i know its a B&O thread, i think there is a B&O dealer in Wilmslow not far from here, as i spied the speakers that have the acoustic lenses through the window while i was waiting at the lights. (although i suspect if i did go, me not turning up in a Ferrari or Lamborghini they wouldn't let me in
I'd read a lot about the research that Floyd Toole and Sean Olive had done and how that informed the design goals at Harman. I'd also read LOTS of great reviews of the Revel Salon2s and was very curious to hear them. I arranged that with the UK Harman distributor. He suggested I should also listen to the JBL 4367s whilst there, which I did. The Salon2s are fantastic speakers and I was thinking I need to get a pair of these. Then they switched to the 4367s and they were even better! They did everything the Salon2s did but also made the music sound live at the same time. Long story short, I knew the 4367s were trickle down from the M2 and so in for a penny . . . . . 😀
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
It's amusing to see us comparing the very latest in loudspeaker technology (Beolab 90/50 Series) with one of the oldest concepts in the book, a horn hybrid with large diameter paper cone - the design of which dates back over half a century.
I'm in the old school camp.
I'm in the old school camp.
misterdog
Not the canine kind
As does the Quad ESL design.
At the end of the day there is no perfection, I think if you are used to listening to amplified 'rock' music your brain tells you that pistonic drivers in a box are more correct whereas if you listen to non amplified acoustic instruments ESL's sound more correct.
IMO.
iansr
pfm Member
It is, but then again all the speakers I've mentioned are trying to address the same issue i.e. off axis radiation. The Kii 3s and Beolabs aim to minimise it whilst the Revels and JBLs mitigate its effects by ensuring the off axis response is as smooth as possible.
Tony L
Administrator
Indeed, here's one of the 'controlled dispersion' speakers in my TV system, designed back in 1963 and actually a budget-constrained refinement of a 1948 design (Klipschorn)! Rather odd things, but the directionality of horn-loading really does negate most room artefacts. The vast majority of speakers would sound way beyond terrible backed into these deep alcoves, the La Scalas are perfectly happy. They don't have much deep bass, but what they do have is lightening fast and controlled.
PS For those who listen with eyes rather than ears here's a response plot of them driven by a £100 Amptastic T-Amp!
Space is the Place
pfm Member
Yes the guy at Harmon UK was trying to tell me the big Revels were a good speaker and one to rival the JBL's but as you found out at the demo, the JBL's have that liveness and freedom from compression that just makes them sound er... live!
I'll join you then, I'll lend a 1984 Lambo from my friend then and come and pick you up! We might as go the whole hog and dress like we're from Miami Vice
I'll join you then, I'll lend a 1984 Lambo from my friend then and come and pick you up! We might as go the whole hog and dress like we're from Miami Vice
iansr
pfm Member
Yes the guy at Harmon UK was trying to tell me the big Revels were a good speaker and one to rival the JBL's but as you found out at the demo, the JBL's have that liveness and freedom from compression that just makes them sound er... live!
I'll join you then, I'll lend a 1984 Lambo from my friend then and come and pick you up! We might as go the whole hog and dress like we're from Miami Vice
If you are serious about going I can let you know once I've arranged it - ?
Space is the Place
pfm Member
Indeed, here's one of the 'controlled dispersion' speakers in my TV system, designed back in 1963 and actually a budget-constrained refinement of a 1948 design (Klipschorn)! Rather odd things, but the directionality of horn-loading really does negate most room artefacts. The vast majority of speakers would sound way beyond terrible backed into these deep alcoves, the La Scalas are perfectly happy. They don't have much deep bass, but what they do have is lightening fast and controlled.
PS For those who listen with eyes rather than ears here's a response plot of them driven by a £100 Amptastic T-Amp!
I think this is part of the reason why i started to get interested in Horns, the person who i got the NHT system from was the distributor at the time, basically he co-owned own a company that installed domestic music systems and cinemas, they could pretty much build whatever they wanted, and had supplied all sorts of exotica to different clients, Acapella Horns etc...
I can remember having a conversation with him about the Klipsch's above and him saying that if you play a jazz quartet through them they are fairly convincing at producing the live dynamics of the sound fairly intact (i've never heard a pair myself however).
I think the other influences i had was hearing the 1400 playing live concert recording many years ago at the Manchester Hifi show, the only speakers that were better IMO were the MBL Radstaller's at a £100K!
Space is the Place
pfm Member
Yeah would love to Ian, would like to hear the "state of the art", will PM you with my email, thanks.
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
It will be very interesting to hear your thoughts.
Horns/high efficiency speakers like the big JBL's are really special.
The latest JBL's I've heard have stunning resolution and dynamics, with very low distortion and colouration compared to other horn loaded speakers I've heard in decades past.
Electrostatics are amazing too, but bass and power handling limitations are an issue, apart from hybrid design like Martin Logans.
The B&W 800 series are the acme of a very refined moving coil/cone loudspeaker, but dynamically sound quite sat on compared to something like the big JBL's if we're talking 'live' sound dynamics and scale.
I don't think the Beolab 90's are perfect, and I've yet to hear the new Beolab 50's, but when i heard them at the HiFi show I went to late last year, and compared them (albeit different rooms) they combined much of the strengths of the JBL's and B&W 800's, with few of the weaknesses.
Looking forwards to your thoughts when you hear them..
Cheers
Space is the Place
pfm Member
It will be very interesting to hear your thoughts.
Horns/high efficiency speakers like the big JBL's are really special.
The latest JBL's I've heard have stunning resolution and dynamics, with very low distortion and colouration compared to other horn loaded speakers I've heard in decades past.
Electrostatics are amazing too, but bass and power handling limitations are an issue, apart from hybrid design like Martin Logans.
The B&W 800 series are the acme of a very refined moving coil/cone loudspeaker, but dynamically sound quite sat on compared to something like the big JBL's if we're talking 'live' sound dynamics and scale.
I don't think the Beolab 90's are perfect, and I've yet to hear the new Beolab 50's, but when i heard them at the HiFi show I went to late last year, and compared them (albeit different rooms) they combined much of the strengths of the JBL's and B&W 800's, with few of the weaknesses.
Looking forwards to your thoughts when you hear them..
Cheers
Yeah i'll look forward to it. the JBL's i had weren't high sensitivity the horn part was but padded down to work with the woofer, I think they were about 89db...but i had four monoblocks and 500w for each speaker, which was adequate.
I think they were crossed over at 750hz which in the normal scheme of things is quite high for a 15 inch driver to reach.
I had my preconceived ideas of what they would sound like i thought they be much more upfront and bright, and perhaps there would be some kind of character to the sound, but actually the opposite was the case, there is a really good review on the 1400's by James Tanner (the owner of Bryston) who explains the evenness the speakers have, his summation i pretty much concur with! The NHT's are pretty close to the old 801Ns.
Yes it will be nice to hear the 90's or even the 50s!
This is the link to his review...
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
Many thanks for the review link. An excellent review - really told it as it was, rather than the usual flowery sales promotion review found in mainstream media. Excellent!
Cheers
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
the kii three and beolab control the LF via cardioid response. the jbl/revel do not. totally different desing
those threads are turning into nonsense. no matter if the speaker is cardioid or not, place them in a room, measure your listening room. still a total complete mess in LF even with cardioid response. this cardioid "control" is some sort of new marketing. in practice, please anyone, show me a ETC measurements of untreated room using Geithain, Kii three or any other design with cardioid response. It will still be a complete mess. the only tried and true remedy, backed by in room measurements (not anechoic), is room treatment: large bass traps.
cardioid helps, sure. but to call it a remedy to room modes is a lie. same with Digital Room Correction
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Why do you imagine loudspeakers are soffit mounted?
Keith
Keith
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
Indeed, here's one of the 'controlled dispersion' speakers in my TV system, designed back in 1963 and actually a budget-constrained refinement of a 1948 design (Klipschorn)! Rather odd things, but the directionality of horn-loading really does negate most room artefacts. The vast majority of speakers would sound way beyond terrible backed into these deep alcoves, the La Scalas are perfectly happy. They don't have much deep bass, but what they do have is lightening fast and controlled.
Yep. I have just one of mine in a large bay window - the other in the room proper. Best imaging I've enjoyed in over a decade and the most enjoyable setup I've owned full stop.
The 1400 reminds me of a grown up 4430 so in reality, it's a refinement of a 40 year old loudspeaker design.
A friend was around yesterday who has been involved in the audio business (selling and designing well known loudspeakers) for almost that long.
He was talking about the advantages of DSP crossovers, multiple dedicated ampification channels and DRC algorithms.
I'll struggle to forget the huge grin on his face when the first bars of "Autobahn" from an analogue copy of Minimum Maximum hit his face at about 90 db
He was sold. We didn't talk about DSP again - we just explored my music collection and drank tea.