Are Koetsus worth it?

[sq225917]

There's a dirty undercurrent of casting aspersions on 2Juki by association in this thread, frankly it doesn't surprise me given the UK dealer acolytes posting. I've not read a single forum example of a genuine buyer of his being less than pleased with product and service. Even when a sale has gone awry initially he always sorts it,

I've purchased several items from him over the years, always at a great price and always 100% genuine and perfectly as described. it's a global market, it seems all some UK dealers have to offer is massive markups and muck throwing.

 

[pmac]

There's a dirty undercurrent of casting aspersions on 2Juki by association in this thread, frankly it doesn't surprise me given the UK dealer acolytes posting. I've not read a single forum example of a genuine buyer of his being less than pleased with product and service. Even when a sale has gone awry initially he always sorts it,

I've purchased several items from him over the years, always at a great price and always 100% genuine and perfectly as described. it's a global market, it seems all some UK dealers have to offer is massive markups and muck throwing.

Quite!

 

[pmac]

I have no issue with UK dealers making their margins, they wouldn't exist otherwise. I have bought many new products from several of them and wish them continued success.

I do, however, find it difficult to stomach unsubstantiated rubbish spouted about a genuine seller who just happens to undercut them.

2Juki's reputation doesn't deserve to be brought down in this manner.

 

[montesquieu]

The Miyajima (Shilabe, that I heard in my system in November) was very Koetsu- like and quite different to the Benz and Transfig.

Interesting you should say that I would characterise it as a cross between a high-end SPU and a Koetsu with the flaws bred out out it ... then again I've only owned up to Rosewood Signature. For my money though the Kansui is even better.

I'd love to hear a Miyajima Madake ....

I have no issue with UK dealers making their margins, they wouldn't exist otherwise. I have bought many new products from several of them and wish them continued success.

I do, however, find it difficult to stomach unsubstantiated rubbish spouted about a genuine seller who just happens to undercut them.

2Juki's reputation doesn't deserve to be brought down in this manner.

Totally agree. It seemed to me more like an attempt to spread some FUD in order to bring people back to the official dealer network - of course grey market stuff comes in the main from the official dealer network in the first place, but manufacturers do like to keep control of pricing as much as they can in order to protect their 'brand'.

 

[pmac]

I'd love to hear a Miyajima Madake ....

You should, it's a cracker!

 

[topoxforddoc]

There's a dirty undercurrent of casting aspersions on 2Juki by association in this thread, frankly it doesn't surprise me given the UK dealer acolytes posting.

Simon,

I don't think that I or anyone else has cast aspersions on 2juki or indeed any seller specifically. My posts about this topic of fakes were just to confirm that there are indeed counterfeit cartridges being sold from the Far East and Hong Kong. The letter from Koetsu themselves in TAS confirmed that. GT Audio's post was also generic and not specific about anyone in particular - I don't even think that he is a dealer for Koetsu anyway, so no axe to grind there.

I know that many people have bought from 2juki. I have seen the feedback both here and on other forums. So please don't construe these comments otherwise, as they were not written or intended as a slight on any individual. The comments are there to alert unwary buyers to the fact that there are counterfeit Koetsu cartridges flying around and that people should just think twice. It is not about more slurp - just avoiding distress and unhappiness about splashing out thousands on a counterfeit with no redress.

Charlie

 

[Mike Reed]

You should, it's a cracker! (Miyajima Madake)

That bamboo cantilever puts me off a wee bit (think that's the one). Is it just to be different or are there really sonic benefits? Is it as robust as a solid boron, I wonder (I'm considering the stylus fixing as well here).

Did you hear the Madake in conjunction with another Miyajima, b.t.w.?

 

[pmac]

You should, it's a cracker! (Miyajima Madake) /QUOTE]

That bamboo cantilever puts me off a wee bit (think that's the one). Is it just to be different or are there really sonic benefits? Is it as robust as a solid boron, I wonder (I'm considering the stylus fixing as well here).

Did you hear the Madake in conjunction with another Miyajima, b.t.w.?

As far as I know, the name Madake is derived from the type of bamboo used. I couldn't even guess why they use it, but it certainly works.

You ask if it's as robust as Boron. Well, sorry but I don't know.

Not sure why you chose Boron though. The very best cartridge I have heard has a Titanium cantilever and the TOTR, stone bodied Koetsu uses Diamond. Others use Sapphire or other exotic minerals. Soundsmith uses Cactus spines in one of his high end designs. Are those materials that durable and advantageous soundwise when compared with Boron? Again, no idea, I'm afraid, but I assume they all have alternative reasons other than to be different.

What I will say is that the Miyajima hasn't fallen into the same trap as many 'modern' manufacturers have in producing bright, forward, dry, 'hifi' sounding cartridges. It is very even handed, with a lovely purity of tone. I didn't hear any other Miyajimas to compare. I have heard a Shilabe, but in another (inferior) system, so it would be unfair to compare.

 

[anubisgrau]

The Miyajima (Shilabe, that I heard in my system in November) was very Koetsu- like and quite different to the Benz and Transfig.

Which Koetsu? Not that many similarities neither with old Black or new Goldline, neither in a stock or third party serviced varieties. Smoother, more elegant and slightly more reserved overall, but without that manic jump factor Black mid bass has - certainly more precise and less colored.

My experience with top level stone Ks is limited, I've heard a red stone (name?) in a brilliant setup with Reed arm and Platine Verdier deck, maybe the best conventional analog setup I've ever heard. Given it was unfamiliar system, I wouldn't be able to attribute the qualities to the K only...

FWIW I also have BM ACE SL in my Stogi S - a ridiculously good one for the price, can be tuned in a good setup to a performance it has no right to.

 

[Jonathan]

i shouldn't think that either bamboo fibres nor cactus spines would fail the way boron or crystal does... that's the beauty of organic (grown) fibres ... there's a certain amount of bending they can take and the failure isn't catastrophic like the aforementioned substances

 

[keith1962]

Calfee in the US use bamboo to make bike frames as an alternative to carbon fibre and they have very similar construction methods and properties. Strong but also resilient so might be very good in a cantilever application?

 

[andyr]

Calfee in the US use bamboo to make bike frames as an alternative to carbon fibre and they have very similar construction methods and properties. Strong but also resilient so might be very good in a cantilever application?

Mark Kelly here in Melbourne (who is well known in vinyl circles from his AC motor speed controller work) is now into making bamboo bikes, I believe.

I agree bamboo might be an excellent choice for a cantilever.

Andy

 

[Mike Reed]

Which Koetsu? Not that many similarities either with old Black or new Goldline, neither in a stock or third party serviced varieties. Smoother, more elegant and slightly more reserved overall, but without that manic jump factor Black mid bass has - certainly more precise and less coloured

FWIW I also have BM ACE SL in my Stogi S - a ridiculously good one for the price, can be tuned in a good setup to a performance it has no right to.

It was the Urushi Vermillion. To be fair, the dealer friend at my bake-off had his Shilabe on a Jelco (9 or10") on his TD124. My Urushi was on 12" PU7 mounted on a Dais. Same everything else, of course.

The presentation was very Koetsu-like in this context, and everybody agreed. Maybe the cart. as a whole didn't quite come up to my Urushi, but the comparison wouldn't have done the Miyajima any favours.

It's a bit pointless replacing my Urushi with a cart. which sounds the same over a broad front, but if there are enough differences to both float my boat and challenge the Urushi whilst still being the antithesis of the Transfig. I'd be tempted.

 

[Elephantears]

If I had a couple of grand to spend on a cartridge, I'd be looking at a Grado 'The Statement'. I suspect if I'd been more patient I could have picked one up, now that they have introduced a new version. It wouldn't work into the OPs phono stage, so perhaps not relevant for this thread, but the reviews are mouth watering.

 

[GT]

It was the Urushi Vermillion. To be fair, the dealer friend at my bake-off had his Shilabe on a Jelco (9 or10") on his TD124. My Urushi was on 12" PU7 mounted on a Dais. Same everything else, of course.

As I have mentioned a few times on here the Shilabe needs a high mass tonearm of about 30grams to work properly. Anything less and your are wasting your time.

 

[Mike Reed]

As I have mentioned a few times on here the Shilabe needs a high mass tonearm of about 30grams to work properly. Anything less and your are wasting your time.

I came across a Fidelity Research 12" arm whilst vaguely looking at the 64x (?). That had a mass approximating 30g, but looked to be almost unobtainable or at least, a rare beast.

What other high medium mass arms are there , as the 12" ones I come across all seem to be between 12 and 20 g?

 

[Shuggie]

As I have mentioned a few times on here the Shilabe needs a high mass tonearm of about 30grams to work properly. Anything less and your are wasting your time.

Just to clarify - the Shilabe that Mike heard in his system was mine, fitted to a Fidelity Research FR64S, and not a Jelco. It is possible to stoke up the effective mass of a Jelco with heavier headshells, of course, but the FR64S is definitely a classy bit of kit and a natural partner for a Miyajima cartridge.

 

[Mike Reed]

Sorry, Hugo; my error. Not sure now why I thought it was a Jelco. The FR64S is still in the lower medium mass range, though, I think. Must consult Google again, because I think it was the X which I investigated recently, along with its 12" sibling.

 

[Tony L]

The FR64S and FX are standard length (nearer 10" than 9" IIRC) and the FR66S and FX are 12". There are many other Fidelity Research arms, but they seem to be less valuable.

Regarding mass: do bare in mind it is just weight/motion, i.e. it can be added with headshell weights or heavier headshells assuming the counterweight can balance it out or a heavier counterweight can be used.

 

[Shuggie]

The FR64S and FX are standard length (nearer 10" than 9" IIRC) and the FR66S and FX are 12". There are many other Fidelity Research arms, but they seem to be less valuable.

Regarding mass: do bare in mind it is just weight/motion, i.e. it can be added with headshell weights or heavier headshells assuming the counterweight can balance it out or a heavier counterweight can be used.

Indeed - I add extra headshell weights (5p pieces) to the Jelco 10" to bring its effective mass more or less up to the 30g of the FR64S. The Miyajima Shilabe really does get into its stride with this sort of mass behind it.

I see that the Koetsu Urushi Vermillion specs (and most other Koetsus for that matter) indicate that its compliance is a very low 5 x 10-6cm/Dyne (presumably at 100 Hz) so Koetsus would seem to appreciate the same high effective mass as the Miyajimas; and looking at the Vinyl Engine Cartridge Resonance Calculator, such mass looks to be pretty mandatory. I wonder how many Koetsu owners use them in high mass tonearms?