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Are Antifa's Methods Damaging To The Left?

maxflinn

maxflinn

pfm Member
I think their members hearts are in the right place as wanting to fight fascism/racism/homophobia etc is a noble thing, but I think their methods which often include trying to shut down free speech and expression in an often aggressive manor can have a negative effect.

Take the short vid below as an example. I think the thing to do with the likes of Rees Mogg is to question him, to expose him as just another right-wing Tory only looking out for the rich, which I think he clearly is.

But these Antifa people just come across as thugs in the video, shouting out 'fascist', 'racist', and it appears 'Nazi'; not allowing Rees Mogg to speak..

IMO, many people who see this behaviour would be against it, and it is so easy for the Tories and their media wing to use it against the left.

Freedom of speech and expression should be enjoyed by all once not breaking any laws, whether you agree with the message or not.

What do you think?

 
Protesting against far-right loons is entirely correct and the decent thing to do, but shouting/drowning them out as above is counter-productive and distracts from the deep-rooted ugliness of their ideology and the gaping holes in their logic. Silent protest with placards/t-shirts etc or a university policy of no-platforming the hard-right in advance is the correct approach IMO. Alternately attend en-mass but not in a group and ensure the speaker is challenged and forced to answer questions that expose their privilege, corruption and repugnant ideology. Just do it politely. I really didn’t like the behaviour of anyone in that footage at all. It was stupid and counter-productive, though the alt-right thugmoron who punched the girl was obviously the worst.

On the street different rules apply and fascism should be challenged as hard and loudly as possible, though there is plenty of scope for humour, this being one of my favourites:


PS I mentioned Delaney Tarr, one of the students present in the Florida school mass murder in the Trump thread yesterday. She has exactly the right approach; sharp, highly articulate, able to capitalise on both mainstream TV and social media etc and hit the message out with considerable force and gain huge support. That kind of protest actually works. Thuggery never does, it is always counter-productive and damages the argument being made.
 
Regardless of the wider issues of freedom of speech and 'no platforming', the video in the OP makes Rees-Mogg look brave and reasonable, there is no doubt about it. Actually I think he is brave, although I don't believe he is reasonable. Many politicians would have disappeared at the first sign of trouble, a few would have become aggressive themselves, but it does take guts to stay calm under fire.

There's also some ridiculous follow-up interview he did where he goes on about how he knew the protesters weren't going to punch him because 'they were British'. The guy should visit his local high street late on a Friday or Saturday night.

I believe that the vast majority of the British public would completely disagree with Rees-Mogg's views on abortion & homosexuality, for example. I don't see how these could be implemented in modern Britain without a degree of physical repression that is far removed from the peaceful Rees-Mogg persona on display here. He should be encouraged to repeat these views often so people understand who he really is.

Kind regards

- Garry
 
Tony L said:
Protesting against far-right loons is entirely correct and the decent thing to do.
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I agree, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when the protesters are far-left loons like anarcho-communists or marxist would-be-revolutionaries whose own goals are to achieve a revolution. Of course that's not what Antifa stand for, but they have all sorts of suspicious types hanging around with just as nefarious agendas as the groups they are protesting against.
 
Chefren said:
I agree, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when the protesters are far-left loons like anarcho-communists or marxist would-be-revolutionaries whose own goals are to achieve a revolution. Of course that's not what Antifa stand for, but they have all sorts of suspicious types hanging around with just as nefarious agendas as the groups they are protesting against.
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Agreed, I certainly want neither extreme, though the one that needs fighting throughout history tends to be the far-right. I can’t ever see the far left gaining traction in the UK beyond maybe damaging the Labour Party’s election prospects, whereas the far right are a genuine threat. I have said many times before that I would like to see the EDL, BNP, Britain First etc categorised as proper terrorist groups like their Islamist equivalents as they do bring real violence and terror to our minority communities. They are very dangerous indeed and the lurch to the extreme right within the Conservative Party at present fed largely by their failing Brexit debacle only feeds these groups. It worries me hugely that they are adopting all the lies, smears and scapegoating the far-right has used in the past and is currently using in the USA. It is a very depressing time politically where reasoned discussion is made all but impossible due to the noise and organised propaganda smears. An obvious diversion tactic from powers that know they do not have a credible argument to make.

FWIW I view the bellowing ‘anti-fa’ students in the video clip as being at the exact same intellectual level as the countless Tories currently happy to appear on TV and social media making up entirely libellous smears about Corbyn (e.g. the entirely fabricated ‘Czech spy’ libel) or whatever. It is a clear deflection tactic from people without a credible position to argue from to prevent being challenged.

By saying this I do believe in ‘safe spaces’ in our schools and universities and I would ban far-right ideologues, racists, fascists etc from speaking there. Whilst it can be fun to rip them a new one with a well formed argument or question people from minorities have a right not to be abused in their place of learning. Rees-Mogg doesn’t fit this category at all IMO. I personally think he is a complete bell-end, but he is an elected MP, albeit one that does hold some ugly and extreme-right views. There are countless holes and inconsistencies in his positions and (like Farage etc) he gets ugly real fast when they are exposed. That is the way to deal with him. Those looking to protest should have attended the event and made sure his less savoury views were placed under an appropriate critical spotlight.
 
You don't need to get dressed up like a lost snowboarder to demonstrate, unless your intentions are less than well intended. If you look like a yob, and act like a yob it doesn't matter which side you are on.
 
I did not say that.

It is for any school, college, unversity, whatever to invite whoever they want to speak at their establishment. If they choose not to invite people they don't want that is fine. No one has a right of audience.

If anyone wants to arrange their own venue and invite people to attend to hear whatever it is they want to say, then that is OK by me too.
 
Cav said:
If anyone wants to arrange their own venue and invite people to attend to hear whatever it is they want to say, then that is OK by me too.
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So you don’t believe in banning hate groups as we do, e.g. pro-ISIS Islamists, ‘National Action’ etc? Free speech isn’t an absolute right IMHO, there is a point beyond which it has to be classed at criminal behaviour (incitement etc).
 
Tony L said:
So you don’t believe in banning hate groups as we do, e.g. pro-ISIS Islamists, ‘National Action’ etc? Free speech isn’t an absolute right IMHO, there is a point beyond which it has to be classed at criminal behaviour (incitement etc).
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I would rather everyone has a right to say what they believe. It is for Governments to decide what they deem "criminal". The criminalisation of spoken thought is the thin edge of a huge wedge, potentially.
 
maxflinn said:
I think their members hearts are in the right place as wanting to fight fascism/racism/homophobia etc is a noble thing, but I think their methods which often include trying to shut down free speech and expression in an often aggressive manor can have a negative effect.

Take the short vid below as an example. I think the thing to do with the likes of Rees Mogg is to question him, to expose him as just another right-wing Tory only looking out for the rich, which I think he clearly is.

But these Antifa people just come across as thugs in the video, shouting out 'fascist', 'racist', and it appears 'Nazi'; not allowing Rees Mogg to speak..

IMO, many people who see this behaviour would be against it, and it is so easy for the Tories and their media wing to use it against the left.

Freedom of speech and expression should be enjoyed by all once not breaking any laws, whether you agree with the message or not.

What do you think?

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You need to go back and look at who started violence during that protest. I’m assuming you already know and therefore must be trolling your Putin promoting, Trump free-pass BS again?
 
TheDecameron said:
You need to go back and look at who started violence during that protest. I’m assuming you already know and therefore must be trolling your Putin promoting, Trump free-pass BS again?
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Don't behave like a child, Dec, trying to shit-stir just because I've taken issue with the use of your favourite term of abuse for people supportive of Brexit.

Engage like a man, on that thread, with the points I've made, if you wish to engage with me at all.
 
rubber said:
Posh rich kids who family's who are more right wing than the ones they are protesting about
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I remember when they use to sell the Socialist Worker on the streets in Sheffield they perfected an excellent Cockney cry of " Soshlist Werka ! " made me laugh as I knew most of them and they were all middle class brats..Squadron Leaders daughters and Doctors sons....I went to Uni with two of them.
 
I knew a woman who’d been in SWP who admitted to glassing a guy in a pub over a political argument when she was younger. Now leads a very, very different life.
 
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