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Any lawyers or solicitors here that can help ?

stumpy

Now a specialty speaker manufacturer
I have an audio legal question, a simple one. I'd rather ask it via PM, but I can pose it in a roundabout way...

Apparantely if a product is called "Swiss chocolate" you can't make chocolate in, say, the USA and call it "Swiss chocolate" or I think even "Swiss style choclolate". I may be wrong about that.

But, say you were making amplifiers in the USA, could you call them "French style amplifiers" ? or "French amplifiers made in the USA" ? Or "French Inspired Amplifiers" ?

This is not my exact question, but it's close enough. To make matters worse, say there is a French amplifier that is made a certain way, and say I am copying it, to a degree, so that it looks similar, but it is clear that the brand is different, the country of origin is different, that it is a different product from a different company, and no patents or technology is being copied, just the general "scheme". Something very common, like the placement of the knobs or meters. Not copying the logo or anything that direct....

thank you to anyone with an opinion on this. I thought I'd pose it here. Obviously I can ask a real lawyer in real life as well

Stumpy
 
I think you'll probably find that the answer is 'it depends' unless you go into the specifics. Each country is different, and there is also consumer protection legislation as well as trademark and patent law to consider. I think we have some a trademark lawyer on the forum who may be along with some info.
 
From what I've heard it is all very complicated, and each country tries to defend what it sees as its own products. Italy, for instance, has for at least 35 years been fighting against "Parmesan" cheese made in Germany, Spain, etc. There is also the case of, say, shoes that are "Made in Italy" while the uppers come from Romania, the soles from Serbia, and they are allegedly assembled somewhere in Italy. Or just made elsewhere, then come to Italy to be labelled and exported. And just think of "hamburgers" that have never seen Hamburg, or "Tuscan" olive oil that is 50% from north Africa, or Scotch whisky made in Spain. In China they make bikes called "Kensington," or, what always amuses me, Chinese tools with a very German-sounding name.
 
You may need to investigate whether the box you are seeking to use as inspiration has any registered design rights. These are quite separate from patents for technology or any other novel aspect of the design.

Alternatively if the original manufacturer was extremely litigious, you may find an action for 'passing off' against you. On t'other hand not much audio is big enough in sales or profits for anyone to be worried. So long as purchasers are clear that they are not buying a knock-off I cant see what the problem would be.
 
I have an audio legal question, a simple one. I'd rather ask it via PM, but I can pose it in a roundabout way...

Apparantely if a product is called "Swiss chocolate" you can't make chocolate in, say, the USA and call it "Swiss chocolate" or I think even "Swiss style choclolate". I may be wrong about that.

But, say you were making amplifiers in the USA, could you call them "French style amplifiers" ? or "French amplifiers made in the USA" ? Or "French Inspired Amplifiers" ?

This is not my exact question, but it's close enough. To make matters worse, say there is a French amplifier that is made a certain way, and say I am copying it, to a degree, so that it looks similar, but it is clear that the brand is different, the country of origin is different, that it is a different product from a different company, and no patents or technology is being copied, just the general "scheme". Something very common, like the placement of the knobs or meters. Not copying the logo or anything that direct....

thank you to anyone with an opinion on this. I thought I'd pose it here. Obviously I can ask a real lawyer in real life as well

Stumpy
The problem with "Swiss chocolate" was that the Swiss have not only a reputation for high-quality chocolate, but also a standard as to what exactly constitutes milk chocolate (certain minimum percentage of cocoa butter, that sort of thing). Thus, when Cadbury sought to market a Toblerone taste-alike (nougat and almonds) called Swiss Chalet, complete with Alpine scene wrapper, the Swiss chocolate manufacturers' association took court action in the UK, complaining that the Cadbury product not only was not made in Switzerland, but also did not comply with the Swiss standard for milk chocolate, and thus was harmful to their reputation. The association succeeded and Cadbury had to relabel the product.

The question therefore is, does the term "French-style amplifier" have a particular meaning in the trade? And is there a French industry body that would be suitably offended by such usage to take action? I confess that I can't think of a single French amplifier manufacturer (I'm sure they must exist - and I still think of Naim as quintessentially British!).

From what you describe, your problems would come about if a particular external appearance of an amplifier was covered by a Registered Design (protecting the appearance of an article) and you came up with a close facsimile. Given that knobs and meters are common elements on amplifiers, the arrangement would have to be sufficiently unusual to merit protection. As an example, let's take very non-French McIntosh. Its amplifiers are often characterised by large VU meters. Take this one:

images


Say you copy it exactly, even to the colour of the name, but changing the name to STUMPY. Would it constitute an infringement? Something so blatant possibly would, although it could be argued that such amplifiers are only bought by knowledgeable aficionados who would not be deceived by the substantially identical appearance and who almost certainly would not put down a large wad for a STUMPY (sorry!). It could also constitute passing off under UK common law.

If you want to pm me for more, please feel free to do so.
 
From what I've heard it is all very complicated, and each country tries to defend what it sees as its own products. Italy, for instance, has for at least 35 years been fighting against "Parmesan" cheese made in Germany, Spain, etc. There is also the case of, say, shoes that are "Made in Italy" while the uppers come from Romania, the soles from Serbia, and they are allegedly assembled somewhere in Italy. Or just made elsewhere, then come to Italy to be labelled and exported. And just think of "hamburgers" that have never seen Hamburg, or "Tuscan" olive oil that is 50% from north Africa, or Scotch whisky made in Spain. In China they make bikes called "Kensington," or, what always amuses me, Chinese tools with a very German-sounding name.

The cheese business is the appelations d'origine for which the French are particular enthusiasts. There is now an EU right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geogr...raditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

The Swiss watch industry has a minimum Swiss content (60%), and it must be assembled and inspected in Switzerland.
 
Stumpy

As others have implied, this is not necessarily a simple question.

It would depend on the laws of the country of sale and the intent and integrity of the maker/seller.
 
I agree with Tones. Geographical designations tend to be for foodstuffs and wines - e.g. Stilton cheese, Champagne, Parma Ham.

At a fundamental level we are talking about the tort of passing off. Is there a misrepresentation as to the origin or quality of the goods likely to deceive or confuse a purchaser? If so it is probably actionable by a party adversely affected.
 
You may need to investigate whether the box you are seeking to use as inspiration has any registered design rights. These are quite separate from patents for technology or any other novel aspect of the design.

Alternatively if the original manufacturer was extremely litigious, you may find an action for 'passing off' against you. On t'other hand not much audio is big enough in sales or profits for anyone to be worried. So long as purchasers are clear that they are not buying a knock-off I cant see what the problem would be.

My favorite was M&S clothing/shoes range ," inspired by Italian design"
 
Stumpy

Is this anything to do with your now being "speciality speaker manufacturer"?
 
Yes, thanks for the replies. I have an 8 inch 3 way (dome mid) standmount ready and am doing a 12.5 inch 3 way large monitor which sits on a stand which just so happens to use a 7 inch mid with a phase plug.

I am thinking of the classic Spendor sp100 and the BC1 (and whatever its other incarnation was) and also the Harbeth 40 and Hl5.

My speakers are different entirely. For one thing, they are sealed boxes. However they do look like the above. It's hard not to, keeping with a rectangular box. And I have taken "inspiration" from British speakers and British Audio in general, as I go back a ways (back to the black faceplate Cambridge gear).

I was wanting to say "British loudspeakers made in the USA" but I think that's stretching things. I have piqued the interest of one or two people with that saying, however.

There's not a single thing the same between my speakers and any of the mentioned products, except the general way they look, which is unavoidable.
No thin walled box, no venting, etc etc.
 
i don't see any particular problem with having a blurb that says 'inspired by classic british speaker design' etc
 
i don't see any particular problem with having a blurb that says 'inspired by classic british speaker design' etc

it might be perfectly legal, but as a potential customer, I think it is a crass wannaabee attempt to emulate the successes of others, without having confidence in your own work.
 
Yes, thanks for the replies. I have an 8 inch 3 way (dome mid) standmount ready and am doing a 12.5 inch 3 way large monitor which sits on a stand which just so happens to use a 7 inch mid with a phase plug.

I am thinking of the classic Spendor sp100 and the BC1 (and whatever its other incarnation was) and also the Harbeth 40 and Hl5.

My speakers are different entirely. For one thing, they are sealed boxes. However they do look like the above. It's hard not to, keeping with a rectangular box. And I have taken "inspiration" from British speakers and British Audio in general, as I go back a ways (back to the black faceplate Cambridge gear).

I was wanting to say "British loudspeakers made in the USA" but I think that's stretching things. I have piqued the interest of one or two people with that saying, however.

There's not a single thing the same between my speakers and any of the mentioned products, except the general way they look, which is unavoidable.
No thin walled box, no venting, etc etc.
As you say, most speakers tend to look like other speakers, so I can't see a problem with their appearance. So it comes down to how you advertise them. "British speakers made in the USA" sounds silly. I think Jonathan's suggestion above is a very good way out.
 
I was wanting to say "British loudspeakers made in the USA" but I think that's stretching things. I have piqued the interest of one or two people with that saying, however.

If you are planning to make proper thin-wall plywood screwed-baffle speakers saying BBC-influenced design would be perfectly fair IMO. It would however be entirely inappropriate to say that if they were glued-MDF!
 


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