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Another Kii THREE thread.

AndyU said:
Yes they were!



Not that Keith can even measure dispersion ..
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My plan is to measure the off-axis response at various increments and build up a more complete picture of the loudspeakers’ in-room response, but subjectively the 8Cs are clearly better and it’s not the other actives fault they simply can’t create the cardioid response .
In comparison they are just slightly blurry,softer it is immediately obvious when you compare both loudspeakers side by side.
This has been true with every traditional design I have compared them with.
Keith
 
Tony L said:
Has anyone even pronounced how much is ‘right’? One of the things the ridiculously expensive B&Os get right to my mind (on paper at least, I’ve not heard them yet) is to recognise different dispersion characteristics are desirable in different listening scenarios. This is something I've recognised for a long time now and I do have a lot of time for very narrow dispersion speakers such as horns and ESLs as the sound hits the listeners ears long before any room splash giving a very clean, clear and open sound. This being something Paul Klipsch and other real speaker design pioneers recognised a lifetime ago!
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I think different people hear things differently e.g. I find ESL63s quite limiting due to their poor vertical dispersion characteristics, which I describe as like listening through a letter box. The 989 doesn#t suffer this due to the height. The owner of the 63s can hear what I mean but it doesn't bother him at all (although he does use his JR149s in preference!! (with bass extenders on both)).

I think Floyd Toole is of the opinion that wide dispersion sounds more natural, and I agree. However certain sounds e.g. brass instruments do sound good through directional speakers, perhaps because they are directional instruments?

Then there's the question of what you get used to...
 
I’m very much a ‘hot seat’ listener which may explain my view. I have not the slightest issue with ESL 63 dispersion, but I would obviously have them pointing at me!
 
Purité Audio said:
My plan is to measure the off-axis response at various increments and build up a more complete picture of the loudspeakers’ in-room response, but subjectively the 8Cs are clearly better and it’s not the other actives fault they simply can’t create the cardioid response .
In comparison they are just slightly blurry,softer it is immediately obvious when you compare both loudspeakers side by side.
This has been true with every traditional design I have compared them with.
Keith
Click to expand...

Coud you respond to the contradictory statements on the previous page please?
 
Purité Audio said:
What is there to explain, the one measurement on axis comparison clearly shows the tighter response of the cardioid response speaker that is obvious, one on-axis measurement does not and cannot completely describe the sound of the loudspeaker.
There are some anechoic measurements of th 8C here,
http://dutchdutch.com/assets/images/8c-spec-sheet.pdf

Keith
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About 10 posts back. You say that the graph clearly demonstrates how one speaker is superior to another speaker (it doesn't, that's too simplistic). But in the last couple of posts you've said how the graph doesn't adequately descibe a speaker. Which is it, it can't be both?
 
Hi - I've been following this post, and have been somewhat amazed at the digs at Keith and the general lack of what we're all meant to do - trust our own ears. There are comments on this thread from people who have obviously never heard the Kiis, but are getting embroiled in arguing about measurements, and whether they were conducted accurately. I won't even bother taking the time to respond to this line of "argument"

I'll cut to the chase:
1. I have no affiliation to Keith, Purite Audio or Kii.
2. I replaced my Devialet 200 / Linn Akurate 242 system with a pair of Kii 3s and Kii Controller.
3. I've never heard better sound in my room - no measurements, just using my ears.
4. I'm listening to much more music than I ever have previously.
5. I don't stress about cables, power supplies, stands, DACs, interconnects and other foo, anymore.

ATB, Ken
 
ZincAlloy said:
There are comments on this thread from people who have obviously never heard the Kiis, but are getting embroiled in arguing about measurements, and whether they were conducted accurately. I won't even bother taking the time to respond to this line of "argument"
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You don’t care if measurements used to argue against other people’s experiences and perspectives are accurate or not? Really?
 
Tony L said:
You don’t care if measurements used to argue against other people’s experiences and perspectives are accurate or not? Really?
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Yes, really! I don't listen to measurements, I listen to music. When I'm at a live concert, I don't consider whether the sound is "correct"; I just enjoy the experience - and I say that having stood directly in front of Johnny Ramone's amplifier for over an hour, 30 years ago. Suspect that may tell a tale..
 
To be fair though, it doesn't (from your post history) look as if you have heard a particularly varied collection of audio equipment in your own domestic surroundings.

I think Keith unfortunately gets a lot of stick because of his overt promotion on the site. I'm sure these speakers sound fine. I'm not sure what they do that the majority of Pro PA and monitor devices don't these days but I'm sure I could find out if I was remotely interested :)

Glad you are enjoying your music though. That's what it's all about and many of us lose sight of that.
 
ZincAlloy said:
Hi - I've been following this post, and have been somewhat amazed at the digs at Keith and the general lack of what we're all meant to do - trust our own ears. There are comments on this thread from people who have obviously never heard the Kiis, but are getting embroiled in arguing about measurements, and whether they were conducted accurately. I won't even bother taking the time to respond to this line of "argument"

I'll cut to the chase:
1. I have no affiliation to Keith, Purite Audio or Kii.
2. I replaced my Devialet 200 / Linn Akurate 242 system with a pair of Kii 3s and Kii Controller.
3. I've never heard better sound in my room - no measurements, just using my ears.
4. I'm listening to much more music than I ever have previously.
5. I don't stress about cables, power supplies, stands, DACs, interconnects and other foo, anymore.

ATB, Ken
Click to expand...

Measurements are diagnostic, not prescriptive.
 
ZincAlloy said:
Hi - I've been following this post, and have been somewhat amazed at the digs at Keith and the general lack of what we're all meant to do - trust our own ears. There are comments on this thread from people who have obviously never heard the Kiis, but are getting embroiled in arguing about measurements, and whether they were conducted accurately. I won't even bother taking the time to respond to this line of "argument"

ATB, Ken
Click to expand...
Great post Ken, couldn't agree more.
 
merlin said:
To be fair though, it doesn't (from your post history) look as if you have heard a particularly varied collection of audio equipment in your own domestic surroundings.

I think Keith unfortunately gets a lot of stick because of his overt promotion on the site. I'm sure these speakers sound fine. I'm not sure what they do that the majority of Pro PA and monitor devices don't these days but I'm sure I could find out if I was remotely interested :)

Glad you are enjoying your music though. That's what it's all about and many of us lose sight of that.
Click to expand...
to be fair, get informed
the kii do many different things then other "pro pa and monitor devices" do not

and Keith new measurements actually very good if really measured at the LP. happy to see keith finally getting a hold of speaker and lp placement. a year ago Keith measurement was atrocious with 15 db peak in the bass lol, now his measurements are quite excellent apart form a couple of problems (I think his room is mostly untreated) so tis normal.
 
Ayya Khema said:
to be fair, get informed
the kii do many different things then other "pro pa and monitor devices" do not

and Keith new measurements actually very good if really measured at the LP. happy to see keith finally getting a hold of speaker and lp placement. a year ago Keith measurement was atrocious with 15 db peak in the bass lol, now his measurements are quite excellent apart form a couple of problems (I think his room is mostly untreated) so tis normal.
Click to expand...

Been there. Done it. Got the T Shirt. Ayya. I once worked with Peter Lyngdorf at Tact in the early days. We did some UK shows together IIRC.

Not for me now though. I get far more authentic sound to me by simply understanding the basics of room acoustics and taking those into consideration when purchasing and positioning loudspeakers. I learned what I needed to learn (for my own, personal, recreational purposes) about wave propagation, standing waves, half waves and boundary reinforement, through working alongside Peter all those years ago.

Given that the rules of physics haven't changed, and that TACT pretty much nailed DREQ decades ago in terms of measuring and processing a room's data, it's hard to imagine that quantum leaps have been made in the results - and they would have to be Quantum leaps to make me arsed to listen to something like this.

For me, my really revelatory audio experience was travelling to Japan to meet up with Joel from here, and then later going back for the International Audio Festival with Markus and Ian - again from PFM, to hear just what was possible in a confined space by adopting a different strategy.

Going back to DSP, some pro PA systems have taken this in a different direction by EQ'ing for the listening environment and then allowing the engineer to simulate alternative listening environments - both through further EQ and variable digital delay facilities.

All from the screen of an iPad or your Android device usually. You should look at what they are doing in Pro Audio these days. They are usually remarkably competitively priced in comparison too.
 
The Kiis don’t use room correction, they use an ingenious delayed cross over to create a cardioid response , the Dutch&Dutch 8Cs create a cardioid response too but theirs is based on cabinet design .
Keith
 
I owned the Lyngdorf TDAI with RP and ADC 9-10 years back. Went through various speakers before realising that RoomPerfect wasn't for me either. Think I went to ATC SCM50ASLs for a few years after that with various DAC/Preamps which I found much more natural/truthful. EQ/PSD is EQ/DSP regardless of how the parameters are applied or what they are marketed as.
 
The suggestion here is that EQ and DSP are the same thing. They are not. EQ is just one of the ways in which the Kii Three and Dutch & Dutch 8c employ DSP.
 
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