Another Kii THREE thread.

[SteveH]

The bass perfomance of the Kiis was the main area where they fell short. They certainly didn't sound "ported" in that the low frequencies started and stopped accurately, but they seemed to lack pitch definition and bass extension.

Interesting. When I had the Kiis at home their bass pitch definition was one of the attributes that impressed me most - for example, I was able to follow bass guitar lines and the precise notes being played (i.e. their pitch) much more easily than before, which is why I made the comparison with the first time I heard an LP12. They Kiis did sound quite a bit "lighter" than many other speakers I've heard but I put that down to those bringing along the extraneous mush from room reflections etc. Balance wise, my Obelisks have far more bottom end but it's less easy to follow (noting that the Kiis cost way more). Ultimately, if I can hear what is being played with greater clarity, then to my mind they are better.

As ever, all of this points towards a dem, preferably at home. I care not one jot for measurements. I use my ears since I listen with those rather than microphones.

 

[firedog]

Speaker features I'd listen for in addition to what's already been discussed:

tonality: do voices and acoustic instruments sound like the real thing;
integration between the drivers: is it seamless or nearly seamless?
detail vs. "wholeness": do you clearly hear detail, different instrument lines, etc., and does the speaker provide detail but make a quartet sound like 4 separate instruments or a group playing together?
For instance, a certain audiophile and critics favorite speaker doesn't appeal to me because it presents all the detail, but doesn't make it sound like the musicians are actually together.

 

[firedog]

Interesting. When I had the Kiis at home their bass pitch definition was one of the attributes that impressed me most - for example, I was able to follow bass guitar lines and the precise notes being played (i.e. their pitch) much more easily than before, which is why I made the comparison with the first time I heard an LP12. They Kiis did sound quite a bit "lighter" than many other speakers I've heard but I put that down to those bringing along the extraneous mush from room reflections etc. Balance wise, my Obelisks have far more bottom end but it's less easy to follow (noting that the Kiis cost way more). Ultimately, if I can hear what is being played with greater clarity, then to my mind they are better.

As ever, all of this points towards a dem, preferably at home. I care not one jot for measurements. I use my ears since I listen with those rather than microphones.

When I auditioned the Kii's, one of my test records was Houston Person and Ron Carter, "Chemistry". Sax and bass duets.

Ron Carter (a practicing audiophile) says it is one of the few records that accurately captures all the subtlety of his bass playing. To me, the Kii's allowed me to hear all of those details and sounded very much like the "real thing".

 

[S-Man]

In post #173 I did try to put the Kii3 performance into context i.e. better than almost any ported speaker.
It all depends what your reference is.

 

[firedog]

In post #173 I did try to put the Kii3 performance into context i.e. better than almost any ported speaker.
It all depends what your reference is.

No doubt. If your reference is some giant expensive subwoofers for bass, or massive tower speakers with 12-15 inch woofers. then the Kii isn't going to cut it. If your reference is a standmount or floorstanding speaker that can be found in most domestic environments, the Kii is going to be better in the bass department.

 

[S-Man]

My reference is more similar to the Kiis than it is to any of the things you mention i.e. it has 3 X 6.5" drivers per side in a sealed box driven with clever electronics that corrects the bass response and lowers distortion. The footprint is similar to the Kiis. Unfortunately it is not commercially available (yet), so further discussion is probably a waste of bandwidth.

 

[SteveH]

My reference is more similar to the Kiis than it is to any of the things you mention i.e. it has 3 X 6.5" drivers per side in a sealed box driven with clever electronics that corrects the bass response and lowers distortion. The footprint is similar to the Kiis. Unfortunately it is not commercially available (yet), so further discussion is probably a waste of bandwidth.

Very interesting: If it is anywhere as good as the Kiis and (hopefully) cheaper you will sell bucketloads. When might they be available?

In the meantime, my reference are now the Kiis. I've never heard anything that I enjoy listening to more. IMHO the Kiis combine forensic levels of detail retrieval with a tremendously involving presentation, two attributes that are so often mutually exclusive. Before that, for sheer listening pleasure, it was Shahinian Obelisks, which also present music in such an involving way.

 

[AndyU]

I am always ready to learn Andy, off you go...
Keith

Well, how about .. distortion, intermodulation distortion, waterfall response, phase response, impulse response ..

You need to get over your sour grapes Keith. I was interested, very interested as it happens, in Kii Threes. You offered to sell me a pair. I went to listen to them. I bought some ATCs. You didn’t get a sale. Suck it up. ATCs might originate from a 40 year old design, but that means they have 40 years more experience in making speakers with an exceptional midrange.

 

[Purité Audio]

That’s not fair Andy their tweeters and bass units are pretty good too.
Keith

 

[GT]

Back to you Keith as you are selling yourself as some kind of ‘expert’ and sneering at the views of others; do you really think a simplistic quantity measurement tells the whole story?

I think it should be "Back to school Keith!" Oh and while you are there gen up on Dunning Kruger...

 

[Purité Audio]

I find it incredible Graham that you have been in this business so long and yet know so little!
Keith

 

[IceG]

This thread is really hitting rock bottom now.

Based on the words and behaviour of the various characters here I would not buy any components from any of them - is that really what you chaps want to achieve?

 

[Emlin]

This thread is really hitting rock bottom now.

Based on the words and behaviour of the various characters here I would not buy any components from any of them - is that really what you chaps want to achieve?

I would buy from any of them. That's because I'm not swayed by the personal. I'll go with the measurements, thanks.

 

[S-Man]

Ooooh manbags at dawn

 

[sunbeamgls]

What would you be looking for then Sunbeam, how would you define a loudspeaker if not through its frequency response/dispersion?
Keith

As you are fond of saying to others Keith, go and read some books on the basics of what a speaker needs to do.

 

[sunbeamgls]

I know I am not an ‘expert’ at anything, and I don’t believe for a moment that my one position measurement even begins to describe how a loudspeaker sounds.
I am always keen to learn and discuss we could look at distortion, step response ...
Keith

But a handful of posts above you're claiming your one simple measurement clearly demonstrates superiority of one speaker over another. Does it clearly show superiority or does it not even describe how a speaker sounds? It probably can't be both at the same time.

 

[Emlin]

But a handful of posts above you're claiming your one simple measurement clearly demonstrates superiority of one speaker over another. Does it clearly show superiority or does it not even describe how a speaker sounds? It probably can't be both at the same time.

No such things were claimed. Past your bedtime?

 

[sunbeamgls]

No such things were claimed. Past your bedtime?

Post #161 when Keith was referring to the in-rooom measurements:

"Yet they clearly show the superiority of the 8Cs over your speakers Andy!
And it is blindingly obvious when you compare them.
Keith"

Tackling the subject, not the individual.

 

[AndyU]

No such things were claimed. Past your bedtime?

Yes they were!

What would you be looking for then Sunbeam, how would you define a loudspeaker if not through its frequency response/dispersion?
Keith

Not that Keith can even measure dispersion ..

 

[Tony L]

Not that Keith can even measure dispersion ..

Has anyone even pronounced how much is ‘right’? One of the things the ridiculously expensive B&Os get right to my mind (on paper at least, I’ve not heard them yet) is to recognise different dispersion characteristics are desirable in different listening scenarios. This is something I've recognised for a long time now and I do have a lot of time for very narrow dispersion speakers such as horns and ESLs as the sound hits the listeners ears long before any room splash giving a very clean, clear and open sound. This being something Paul Klipsch and other real speaker design pioneers recognised a lifetime ago!