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A new belt for the Linn LP12

The same fantasist who once correctly named the mains cable being used (out of 2) 6 times.

Honestly just buy a blue belt for £25 and hear for yourself rather than projecting your disbelief on those who have one. Otherwise you're just trolling, check the AUP.

Well I can only think then, that you must need vastly more expensive hifi boxes & spkrs than mine then, to detect such miniscule differences. Or I wonder do you first measure it on some scope thing, see a 0.0005xyz difference, leading your mind to have already concluded that you'll hear a difference.

All I know with my Lp12 with my boxes, there is not a mite of discernable difference with the 3 eg's I mentioned.

Again I'm only trying to understand -how- a different belt (but has to be similar to the Linn one) -could possibly- produce sonic any difference. If it was made from an entirely different material, I can start to think how. But both are rubber.

I'm really not interested in spending £25 if I cannot believe there can be any possible difference. Explain to me how though.. then I might be in a position to consider it. No-one steps up though. Hmm. So I how can I not be dubious-?
 
The human brain is incredibly easily persuaded Stew B. There is no way you have heard any difference, is my opinion, you just think you have. It makes no engineering sense for you to have, between two belts of near identical dimensions & material spinning a heavy platter around at the same speed. It's just not feasible.
I am an engineer myself and I don’t rely on measurements as the only decision. I hear quite clearly the difference the belt makes and it is not subjective in my system and room. In the end it’s your decision what you spend your money on. I always look at it like say food, everyone has different tastes and preferences, it’s not black and white. As a mechanical engineer you can get driven by only data and not look at the wider world. Hey ho I am happy with it and for the cost it gives a good bang for the buck
 
I am an engineer myself and I don’t rely on measurements as the only decision. I hear quite clearly the difference the belt makes and it is not subjective in my system and room. In the end it’s your decision what you spend your money on. I always look at it like say food, everyone has different tastes and preferences, it’s not black and white. As a mechanical engineer you can get driven by only data and not look at the wider world. Hey ho I am happy with it and for the cost it gives a good bang for the buck

Hi Stew B,

again I'm simply trying to understand -how- a different belt, but afaict made from rubber like the original (because I can't envisage any other material being used for a Lp12 belt, nor have ever seen any TT using anything other than rubber).. can possibly make any discernable difference, if, it's also of a similar thickness & also spins it @33RPM.

Just saying 'it does make a difference to me' doesn't answer how it might be doing so. I keep getting the same reply 'good for me here, but up to you etc' (as well as rudeness saying I'm stupid.. what for asking this engineering question-?) almost to the point of no-one seems able to think how this belt can be doing this trick. Just that it does.

Capt
 
I'll bite. Diffetent materials have different compliance, stretch, different friction, the thickness of the belt affects speed, the rate at which it creeps around the pulley due to tension being only between pulley and platter around the six o clock position all affect how speed in controlled. The lp12 drive system is basically a variable spring, with a high mass oscillating in the vertical plane, much less so in pitch and yaw axis. So pretty much everything affects how accurately the pulley speed is transferred to the platter.

When I say measured differently, it was in the range of a couple of dB at specific frequencies, if you know what the J Dunn jitter test for digital looks like imagine removing 2 dB sideboards around the fundamental frequency of the test record and a smattering less around 20-33hz.

It was clearly audible as a tightening of bass note resolution and finer sustain on piano decay.

I'd say about the same level of improvement as going from a crappy plastic rega subplatter to a cnc metal one.

Believe what you like tho.
 
Hi @sq225917

Ok thanks. But here you seem only to be describing how the belt affects -speed-. I would assume speed-accuracy being a pre-requisite factor. I'd simply expect any replacement Lp12 belt, to spin the platter at 33rpm (or if not, then the belt is not fit for purpose/ faulty).

I've said that one would assume the belt to be of a similar thickness, similar material ie rubber, & also assuming simply spins the platter at 33rpm (it's primary function). From these basic assumptions onward then..

..how can one belt possibly provide sonic differences to the other? This (<<<) is what I'm asking about.

In a similar vein: I think it reasonable to ask those who think, somehow, that one side of the Lp12 felt mat sounds better than the other... how they think this small sonic upgrade is being achieved. If they can't provide an explanation, then it is logical & reasonable for me to conclude that it's sheer baloney. Surely.

Capt
 
Even if nobody knows the answer, that doesn't mean to say there is no answer or that the belt doesn't in fact change how the deck sounds once you swap over to the blue one.

Ask me to explain how the Addis pad combo makes a difference and I'll tell you I have no idea. It could be down to sprung damping or it could be down to the materials. It could even be down to elevation changes. I really don't know for sure but - even though I can't explain - I do know it makes a change and that change is for the better.
 
If one compares the Linn and blue belt you will see that the elasticity of them is very different. The Linn belt is much less compliant the blue one much more floppy and stretchy. What is happening is the blue one removes noise from the motor to the platter, bearing and ergo the stylus. That's what allows more micro detail to be revealed and therfore the music to be more enjoyable.
 
Even if nobody knows the answer, that doesn't mean to say there is no answer or that the belt doesn't in fact change how the deck sounds once you swap over to the blue one.

Ask me to explain how the Addis pad combo makes a difference and I'll tell you I have no idea. It could be down to sprung damping or it could be down to the materials. It could even be down to elevation changes. I really don't know for sure but - even though I can't explain - I do know it makes a change and that change is for the better.

Well I have to disagree. If no-one knows the answer, then I'd say from a basic logical perspective, that means there's more than reasonable doubt that it does affect change at all.

I'm really asking Mike, considering he makes the blue belt, but it seems he's reluctant to explain. Maybe this is because it might be divulging design xyz he wants to protect, I don't know (but I'd think if this was the case, he'd have said to me by now tbh).

Sprung damping? The platter sits on 3 springs as we know, so I can't think how these are relevant to what I'm asking about belts (if these are what you're referring to). But, it's the nearest I've got yet to an explanation.. which seems frankly potty. Ive no idea what addis pad combos are.

Nevermind. I'll ask on hfww then.
 
If one compares the Linn and blue belt you will see that the elasticity of them is very different. The Linn belt is much less compliant the blue one much more floppy and stretchy. What is happening is the blue one removes noise from the motor to the platter, bearing and ergo the stylus. That's what allows more micro detail to be revealed and therfore the music to be more enjoyable.

Hi FlatP. Ok great. That's getting me somewhere at last. I hadn't any idea of this word compliant, only that it has something to do with cartridge cantilevers (the stiffness of the rod itself? Or the nature of the suspension thingy it's attatched to the cart body/ Or both? You see it's far from a straightforward term).

Compliance of the belt can surely mean elasticity/ stretchiness as you explain, but also the stiffness of the rubber itself, no? And a slightly greater length would automatically mean more compliance too, I'd have thought.

Ok so my question can now be focused. How then does this extra elastisity, remove noise from the motor to the platter? It can't just vanish surely it must be absorbed or dissapated (I don't suppose you can answer this more 'advanced' question other than conjecture, can you-?).

Thanks, Capt
 
Well I have to disagree. If no-one knows the answer, then I'd say from a basic logical perspective, that means there's more than reasonable doubt that it does affect change at all.

I'm really asking Mike, considering he makes the blue belt, but it seems he's reluctant to explain. Maybe this is because it might be divulging design xyz he wants to protect, I don't know (but I'd think if this was the case, he'd have said to me by now tbh).

Sprung damping? The platter sits on 3 springs as we know, so I can't think how these are relevant to what I'm asking about belts (if these are what you're referring to). But, it's the nearest I've got yet to an explanation.. which seems frankly potty. Ive no idea what addis pad combos are.

Nevermind. I'll ask on hfww then.

It's always going to be your decision regardless of what anyone has to say about it. Either way, enjoy playing your records :)

Forget about the Addis pad combo and sprung damping, I was drawing a comparison between two things where, at least with the Addis pad combo, it's not fully known how it works, even though it clearly does.
 
FWIW we weren’t actually trying to make a better sounding belt when we started developing the blue belts. The original intention was just to make really high quality well fitting belts belts at a good price. The advantages in sound quality however quickly became apparent and came as a surprise bonus.

All too often the belts people are using do not fit optimally and this can have all sorts of repercussions for bearing wear/noise, premature belt wear and increased wow and flutter.

A correctly fitting high quality belt can bring a very surprising uplift in sound quality. On my own Thorens TD125 for example I was measuring about 0.24% wow when using a new genuine Thorens butyl rubber belt and this dropped to 0.06% when switching to the first version of the Bluebelt. I've since got this down to about 0.02% after some further refinement of the belt spec. Quite an improvement I'll think you'll agree and clearly audible. And all from just changing the belt.

The Thorens TD124 is another case in point. The motor capstan is reversible with two sides. For use in areas with 60Hz main electricity you use the smaller diameter end and for 50Hz operation you use the end with the larger diameter. It’s obvious that the optimum belt length is going to be longer for the 50Hz setting that for the 60Hz setting and yet Thorens themselves only supply one belt which is supposedly universal for both frequencies, which is madness! In practice the genuine Thorens belt is just a compromise size and is actually a much better fit when used on the 60Hz setting. It is far too tight at 50Hz. The situation is compounded by third party manufacturers whose belts all over the place in spec and are usually are even tighter.

The standard way of making belts is to make a closed loop from a open ended ribbon of material. On a quality belt the glued end end is then ground flat to remove any imperfections at the glued join, hence you'll often see descriptions like 'precision ground' applied to these belts. Better still, Bluebelts belts are manufactured as a single continuous circular piece and can accurately be described as 'endless' belts.

Most turntable belts on the market are made from black butyl rubber but Nanocamp blue belts are made from silicone rubber, which is an inherently far superior material for making turntable belts from. Butyl rubber really can be considered an obsolete and defunct material now and should be relegated to the past.

So even without any sound quality differences I consider the Bluebelts to be a generally better quality belt than generic belts on the market.

But sound quality improvements are very consistently reported by our customers when switching to the Bluebelt even in situations in which no there is no measured improvement in wow and flutter. I hear it myself on my TD125. So something else is going on...

A major contender as an explanation is the consideration of motor cogging torque:

From wikipedia: Cogging torque of electrical motors is the torque due to the interaction between the permanent magnets of the rotor and the stator slots of a permanent magnet machine. It is also known as detent or no-current torque. This torque is position dependent and its periodicity per revolution depends on the number of magnetic poles and the number of teeth on the stator. Cogging torque is an undesirable component for the operation of such a motor. It is especially prominent at lower speeds, with the symptom of jerkiness. Cogging torque results in torque as well as speed ripple; however, at high speed the motor moment of inertia filters out the effect of cogging torque.

And it's not just cogging either, the motor is a source of other mechanical noise too, some from the motors bearings and other vibrations caused by the imperfect dynamic imbalances of the motor assembly.

Now imagine two alternative belts on a belt drive deck. One is very pliable and elastic and the other is much stiffer and not very stretchy. It's quite easy to imagine that the softer more elastic belt might be better at decoupling the motor noise from the platter and also be better a smoothing out any motor cogging torque pulses.

Another factor which needs to be considered is the resonant frequency of the belt, which is largely determined by the unsupported length of the belt between the pulleys (trum length) but also by the weight of the platter, belt tension and transmission ratio etc. Again it's easy to imagine how a belt with a different resonant frequency may possibly affect the sound as it will be transmitting a vibration to the platter of a different frequency.

FWIW I do consider the Linn belt to be a well engineered product although the price Linn charge is a bit of a joke. There's also no doubt that it works brilliantly with the tapered pulley/capstan design used on the LP12 motor and that's not something that can always be said for our belts, which in fairness don't always get along well with this design of capstan (not an issue with majority of turntables). To that end, I don't consider our LP12 spec belt to be a perfected product in the way that I do consider the TD124 and TD125 belts to be.











 
Hi @Mike P thanks for that comprehensive explanation. I didn't know the principle design idea -wasn't- an upgrade per se. Hmm that renders my inquiry somewhat redundant then.

It sounds like these for the Thorens are a more perfect partnership, IE if my Lp12 isn't -optimally- set up (it's done fine for me, but by me not Cymbiosis for eg) I might be concerned of it slipping off motor spindle or platter.

The vibration absorbtion with the slacker belt idea, aha now I can sort of get the gist of this idea, I think (not quite that easy to imagine though) but wonder why alot of additional thickness/ mass wouldn't increace this absorbtion, assuming it can 'grip' both surfaces sufficiently not to have the additional weight drop it down, & off platter.

The more detailed information is rather over my head, but I'm sure useful for others, & shows you clearly know your stuff & you've obviously put alot more thinking into this product than I had envisaged.

Appreciate the explanation, Capt
 
It's early days yet, but listening to the blue belt on my LP12 (mid 80's, Valhalla pre-Circus) is very encouraging.
In short; it sounds pretty great.
Deeper, more solid bass notes, more detail in general and improved transparency. The deck also sounds more snappy than before which is great.
Previously I used the latest Linn belt. I had some initial problems with the blue belt riding too high on the pulley and making some noise.
Haven't bothered with any speed/wow measurements yet.
Being a silicone belt, the blue belt is physically very different from Linn's rubber belt, and sounds it too.
Very pleased!
 
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Aha so it's silicone. I must have missed this detail- once Mike P kindly explained it, & that it's slacker I did then image silicone, thinking it would provide the extra 'grip' needed to stay on the platter: my 'stickier' gaggia classic gasket's blue.. so blue seems to be silicone's 'colour' or something.

Capt
 


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