3rd edition of Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction"

[Elephantears]

I'm not a 3-way fundamentalist but I defend that for full-range you need 4-ways.

But that doesn't answer my question; why make these dogmatic arguments when you yourself use LS3/6s, a two way with a super-tweeter?

I am concerned that even by asking the question, I'm just continuing to fuel a debate in which one person has instated themselves at the centre, but the arguments by S-Man, for a three way with active crossover to the bass drivers, and by Tony, for minimal crossovers, do give the thread an interesting alternative direction.

 

[Fatmarley]

but the arguments by S-Man, for a three way with active crossover to the bass drivers, and by Tony, for minimal crossovers, do give the thread an interesting alternative direction.

You only have to look at how different all the flagship designs are, by the top manufacturers, to realise that there Is no perfect speaker.

 

[tuga]

But that doesn't answer my question; why make these dogmatic arguments when you yourself use LS3/6s, a two way with a super-tweeter?

I am concerned that even by asking the question, I'm just continuing to fuel a debate in which one person has instated themselves at the centre, but the arguments by S-Man, for a three way with active crossover to the bass drivers, and by Tony, for minimal crossovers, do give the thread an interesting alternative direction.

I drive a 1.0L focus. Shouldn't I be allowed to defend the advantages in racetrack performance of a wide axle, low center of gravity, low profile, mid-mounted engine, rear-wheel drive topology over that of an all-road 4x4 SUV; say Cayman Vs. Cayenne? I wouldn't even have to look at the lap times...

That's just plain missing the point.

 

[tuga]

You only have to look at how different all the flagship designs are, by the top manufacturers, to realise that there Is no perfect speaker.

I agree in absolute that there's no single best solution to transducers.
But it's a fact that some topologies and technical solutions provide more performance potential than others.

 

[tuga]

But that doesn't answer my question; why make these dogmatic arguments when you yourself use LS3/6s, a two way with a super-tweeter?

I am concerned that even by asking the question, I'm just continuing to fuel a debate in which one person has instated themselves at the centre, but the arguments by S-Man, for a three way with active crossover to the bass drivers, and by Tony, for minimal crossovers, do give the thread an interesting alternative direction.

I don't remember Tony defending minimal crossovers.

 

[Tony L]

I don't remember Tony defending minimal crossovers.

I will if you want! I’m a big fan of efficient speakers and feel the have a life and ease that is often lost as drivers get smaller and crossovers more complex. My main disappointment with the current audio market is most manufacturers see to be chasing minor variations on small ported standmounts or the dreaded slim-floorstander rather than pursuing things that can actually bat a serious bit of air about with a Watt or two. It is this move to prissy lifestyle designs that has almost totally turned me off modern audio for the vintage market.

I have a lot of respect for JBL as they are one of a few manufacturers who are using cutting-edge modern technology to make some pretty traditional horn-loaded air-movers (Everest etc), albeit at a price. I just wish there was more trickle-down as there seems to be a huge gap between their real high-end horns and the little budget pro-audio active near-fields with nothing that interesting in it. I’d love to see JBL make something size-wise similar to a Klipsch Forte at say £2-3k, but ideally a two-way as I bet their horn technology is up to it.I can’t be the only one sick to death of arrays of little long-throw 6” bass drivers huffing and puffing through a port as is the way of so many current speakers!

I am convinced the technology exists to make some truly amazing horn-loaded two ways with very simple crossovers as so much can be done with driver and horn design these days. I bet you could get most of the way there with just a cap on the mid/treble horn now, i.e. run the bass full range and design-in the right mechanical roll-off.

 

[cooky1257]

It helps if rather than expressing absolutist opinions about speaker topologies adopted in particular speakers you haven’t heard, to actually go listen to some/ them. theHarry Enfield character approach who always says “you don’t wanna do it like that” just grates in the face of the sheer range of top end solutions on offer. I know of some horn loaded real speakers with just a cap in series( well and a 5 ohm resistor) with the mid treble horn, Tannoy 15 DMT
I’d also challenge the alleged ease with which so called extra performance potential is realised trying to blend/ voice 4 drivers over just 2. Twice the potential to fail too.

 

[tuga]

It helps if rather than expressing absolutist opinions about speaker topologies adopted in particular speakers you haven’t heard, to actually go listen to some/ them. theHarry Enfield character approach who always says “you don’t wanna do it like that” just grates in the face of the sheer range of top end solutions on offer. I know of some horn loaded real speakers with just a cap in series( well and a 5 ohm resistor) Tannoy 15 Dmt.

Listening is important but performance of a particular topology doesn't improve just because a different manufacturer is using it.
I am happy with measurements for many parameters.

 

[tuga]

I will if you want! I’m a big fan of efficient speakers and feel the have a life and ease that is often lost as drivers get smaller and crossovers more complex. My main disappointment with the current audio market is most manufacturers see to be chasing minor variations on small ported standmounts or the dreaded slim-floorstander rather than pursuing things that can actually bat a serious bit of air about with a Watt or two. It is this move to prissy lifestyle designs that has almost totally turned me off modern audio for the vintage market.

I agree that many modern speakers don't sound "lively" but I feel that it's probably more to do with the size of the driver and cabinet than the compexity of the crossover.
Yet, as far as I know, the wider the operating range of a driver the more complex the filter will have to be in order to EQ the typical uptilting response of most drivers.
First order filters are very innefective at controlling the driver's breack up resonance so they also require that the drivers operate over a very narrow range.

I also agree regarding narrow baffles: they produce the baffle step at a higher, more intrusive frequency, leave no alternative but to use tiny woofers and are generally ported. In fact most speakers nowadays are ported.

I have a lot of respect for JBL as they are one of a few manufacturers who are using cutting-edge modern technology to make some pretty traditional horn-loaded air-movers (Everest etc), albeit at a price. I just wish there was more trickle-down as there seems to be a huge gap between their real high-end horns and the little budget pro-audio active near-fields with nothing that interesting in it. I’d love to see JBL make something size-wise similar to a Klipsch Forte at say £2-3k, but ideally a two-way as I bet their horn technology is up to it.I can’t be the only one sick to death of arrays of little long-throw 6” bass drivers huffing and puffing through a port as is the way of so many current speakers!

I am convinced the technology exists to make some truly amazing horn-loaded two ways with very simple crossovers as so much can be done with driver and horn design these days. I bet you could get most of the way there with just a cap on the mid/treble horn now, i.e. run the bass full range and design-in the right mechanical roll-off.

Even though I am with you against the generalisation of 5" and 6" long excursion mid-woofers I don't agree that the horn+larger woofer is the solution.

In fact I think that a real high-end horn should use front-loaded horns from at least the lower-midrange onwards.
And because horns operate over a narrow range (a horn honks like a trumpet if loaded with frequencies close to its Fs and when the wavelength becomes too small the sound is no longer "amplified") you would need at least 3-ways and a direct radiator for low-bass and sub-bass in a sealed cabinet.

Then there's the horn profile which for frequencies above the upper-bass should be either exponential or hyperbolic, prefeably tractrix or JMLC and preferably round in the throat and mouth.

Some examples:
https://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/en/products/trio-series/trio-xd.html
http://www.cessaro.de/products/beta-ii/
http://www.tuneaudio.com/audio-product/tune-audio-anima/

 

[Tony L]

And because horns operate over a narrow range (a horn honks like a trumpet if loaded with frequencies close to its Fs and when the wavelength becomes too small the sound is no longer "amplified") you would need at least 3-ways and a direct radiator for low-bass and sub-bass in a sealed cabinet.

Then there's the horn profile which for frequencies above the upper-bass should be either exponential or hyperbolic, prefeably tractrix or JMLC and preferably round in the throat and mouth.

Again I think modern CAD, materials and manufacturing techniques may well have increased the scope somewhat. JBL are leading the field with horn and waveguide design that make the traditional exponential or even tractrix look pretty much obsolete. The Array series of a decade or two ago was very interesting and very good, but they know how to go further than that now even if there are huge gaps in the product range. I’d love to see JBL make something similar to a Klipsch Jubilee (in its two-way form). I’m convinced a really good big highly efficient 2-way is possible today with far less response, dispersion and time-domain quirks than classics such as the Altec Model 19, Valencia, VOTT etc, wonderful though these vintage speakers are.

 

[tuga]

Again I think modern CAD, materials and manufacturing techniques may well have increased the scope somewhat. JBL are leading the field with horn and waveguide design that make the traditional exponential or even tractrix look pretty much obsolete. The Array series of a decade or two ago was very interesting and very good, but they know how to go further than that now even if there are huge gaps in the product range. I’d love to see JBL make something similar to a Klipsch Jubilee (in its two-way form). I’m convinced a really good big highly efficient 2-way is possible today with far less response, dispersion and time-domain quirks than classics such as the Altec Model 19, Valencia, VOTT etc, wonderful though these vintage speakers are.

I have no doubts that you can produce a better 2-way woofer & horn speaker today improving on those classics you mention. But again I want to stress the limitations of the topology.
Why would you prefer such a more expensive 2-way if you could achieve better performance at a lower cost with a 3-way direct radiation box?
Do you really need high sensitivity today?
Surely if you choose the SET & horns way you are prepared to pay for the enormous expense.

Regarding horns:
Measurements I have seen show the tractrix to be a superior performer.
A round mouth is better than an elliptical mouth which is better than a rectangular mouth.
Front loaded horns have a 3 octave bandwidth.

 

[Tony L]

Do you really need high sensitivity today?

Ideally, yes. Really high efficiency speakers just seem to have a life that is lost in more complex designs IMO, plus many of my favourite amps are low in power!

A round mouth is better than an elliptical mouth which is better than a rectangular mouth.

Again have a closer look at JBL’s more recent horn/waveguide design, they are none of these things. They may look rectangular on first glance but are actually a far more complex profile with very cleverly and carefully controlled dispersion etc. My point is there is actually new science being applied here and that is very rare in audio given almost everything non-digital peaked many decades ago IMO!

 

[merlin]

Listening is important but performance of a particular topology doesn't improve just because a different manufacturer is using it.
I am happy with measurements for many parameters.

Out of interest, what did you find to be offensive and substandard about the waterfall plot of the mid priced JBL hybrid posted earlier? What were the limitations and where did they show up?

 

[Yank]

Ideally, yes. Really high efficiency speakers just seem to have a life that is lost in more complex designs IMO, plus many of my favourite amps are low in power!

I imagine that, besides cost, the main reason why we don't have more high efficiency designs in current production is that it takes a such a big box to make bass.