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Leben CS300 vs Almarro 318b

Pani

pfm Member
Friends,
I have been using a Naim nait 5i with a Pair of Tannoy Turnberry SE for sometime now. I love this combination. However I have been persuaded by few Tannoy owners that I should try a good tube amp with it. For about GBP 1250 I can get either the leben cs300 or Almarro 318b in the used market. Need some views here. I guess both these amps will better the nait 5i in terms of tones but will I lose prat ?

Between Almarro and Leben, how do they compare ?
 
I moved from a Nait 5i to a Leben CS300 and didn't regret it for one minute..the only thing I regret is selling the Leben 18 months later!
Anything you gain far outweighs, in terms of 'tone' and 'just sounding right', to my ears, the loss of perhaps a little that you've become used to. I love all types of music..and the Leben managed to make me want to listen whenever possible...I swear you could hear/feel/sense the valves in Rory Gallagher's Vox when you cranked up Irish Tour!
Get a Leben..and if anyone is selling one...please...
 
I use the Almarro A318B since two years back now. Before that I owned among others Naim Nait 5i/XS + Teddycap/Luxman L550A-II/Copland CTA 405. All good amplifiers but in my opinion the Almarro easily outperformed all of them in musical involvement (whick is most important to me). My speakers are Harbeth C7ES-3.

I have yet to try the CS300 but a couple of months ago I bought the CS600. The idea was to replace the A318B. And it was a very nice sounding amplifier indeed. The best frequence extremes I have ever heard. Very silky and smooth yet crystal clear and with very good punch. But I was still missing that "something" and switched back to the Almarro after a couple of weeks and like magic there was that musical involvement again that I had been missing. So the A318B stayed.

As always it is a question of system synergy, taste in music and personal preference. We were four friends who had a listening session with the two amplifiers. Two of us preferred the Almarro and the other two preferred the Leben.

Sorry if I could not be of more help here. They are both excellent amplifiers. For me the Almarro had the edge with it's ability to draw you into the music but the Leben had better punch and simply a treble to die for.
 
Hi Pani,

I use a 318b with Tannoys. Replaced a Naim 200/202 and miles better. No experience of Leben, but I borrowed three valve amps at the same time to compare: the Almarro, a Chinese 300B SET and a 2A3 parallel PP. Bought the Almarro.

I'm in the West Mids. If you're close, might be able to arrange a listen if you want.

Newbie Jim.
 
These issues of 'taste' have no answer. You will always get people having different opinions. That's h fi. I don't know the Almarro, but I do know Leben, and the build quality of Leben equipment is among the best in the world. I have compared it with far more expensive products, and never found any that are better, or more carefully, built. In the long-term that matters.
On another note...Tannoys are not the easy load that some claim, which is why Tannoy the company suggest a minimum of 50 watts. Personally, I'd try to investigate some more powerful valve amps, if at all possible. And there are plenty of excellent solid state amps that have tonal and other qualities absent from Naim.In other words, you have opened a can of worms and just switching to a low powered valve amp is not automatically the best move. But that is perhaps another story......
Experiment as much as you can, don't just buy second-hand on the advice of guys on forums. That's useless no matter how well meaning, becasue we all have different tastes.. Perhaps ask other users of the forum if you can hear their amps, pr borrow from friends. But lesson number one in audio...is listen for yourself, judge for yourself. It's hard and frustrating, but it leads to better choices and less wasted cash.
 
These issues of 'taste' have no answer. You will always get people having different opinions. That's h fi. I don't know the Almarro, but I do know Leben, and the build quality of Leben equipment is among the best in the world. I have compared it with far more expensive products, and never found any that are better, or more carefully, built. In the long-term that matters.
On another note...Tanoys are not the easy load that some claim, which is why Tannoy the company suggest a minimum of 50 watts. Personally, I'd try to investigate some more powerful valve amps, if at all possible. And there are plenty of excellent solid state amps that have tonal and other qualities absent from Naim.In other words, you have opened a can of worms and just switching to a low powered valve amp is not automatically the best move. But that is perhaps another story......experiment as much as you can, don't just buy second-hand on the advice of guys on forums. That's useless. Perhaps ask other users of the forum if you can hear their amps, pr borrow from friends. But lesson number one in audio...is listen for yourself, judge for yourself. It's hard and frustrating, but it leads to better choices and less wasted cash.

A good and in my experience correct post Paskinn.

I have used Tannoys for maybe 5-6 years albeit the 15" variety. I have tried 1.8 watt set amps and currently use a 9 watt 300b Set amp (now in semi retirement) however I have come to realize that Tannoys recommendation of 50 watts minimum for these speakers is absolutely correct even at low listening levels the speakers just sound so much more in control, so if you want to go valve you will probably have to look for a push pull amp with better than 50 watts on tap and probably using something like a KT88 tube.

Thats my take and experience anyway.

Andy .... currently using a 50w Quad 306
 
I'm likewise currently using a Quad 306, but I also really like my Leak Stereo 20 with my Tannoys (15" Monitor Golds). I've had good results with a Prima Luna push pull amp running EL 34s too, though felt a 3008 SET didn't have enough grunt even though on paper it had similar output to the very grunty and powerful sounding Leak (it's hard to believe that thing has just 10 watts, it sounds like 5-6 times that). As such I'm not sure it's all down to watts here, there may be other factors I don't understand in play. I'd certainly try a tube amp with the Turnberrys, and for that matter I've heard Steven Toy's driven by a SET at WigWam's Scalford show at what for me was way, way too loud a volume, so they can work in that context and may well be easier to drive than the 15" variants.
 
Thank you everyone for some very informative posts. In this discussion, till now no one has advocated me to stay with Naim even though I have mentioned that I really like my Nait 5i. So let me myself be an advocate of Naim and explain a few things.

I have heard the Leben CS600 few times already. I have also heard the CS300 once (in a less familiar setup though) and also the CS300xs (latest version) at the leben showroom. I always liked the way Leben sounded, very clean, open, dynamic and extended yet with a dose of tube character which we all look for in a tube amp. However I have to say two things:

1. When I listened to a Naim amplifier for the first time about a year ago I was almost spell bounded. It made me overlook all other amplifier brands. With Naim the musical argument was so clear and obvious that all other amps I heard in the past felt like they were missing something (including the Leben), something fundamental. Possibly it is the undeterred flow and timing even in the most crowded passages of music which sounds well sorted with the Naim. At that point in time I immediately jumped upon a Nait 5i and have been enjoying it since 1 year. This despite the fact that my speakers and source are all 4 to 5 times more expensive than the 5i.

2. Recently at the Leben showroom I auditioned the Leben CS300xs alongside an Audio Note OTO SE. As usual the Leben sounded clean, dynamic and focussed with good tones. However when the Audio Note started playing I was quite mesmerized. Very soon I forgot what the Leben sounded like and got drenched in the lush wet liquid sound of the Audio Note. I knew it is lacking control in the bass and is not shimmering in the highs like the Leben, it also is somewhat coloured in the mid bass but still it all felt like sweet music. When we played the Leben again immediately after the Audio Note, the Leben sounded broken, lacking emotion, somewhat detached. Even though it was way more detailed with much better bass control it still did not convey the musical message the way the AN did. I did not dare to consider the OTO SE because I could clearly hear that its 10 watts would not be an ideal match for the Tannoys.

Basically, even though I agree that all these tube amps beat the Naim in tone and 3 dimensionality that may not be enough. I live in Singapore so I will not be able to visit any of you to listen to the Almarro but I need your honest opinions whether you missed the Naim flow and rhythmic prowess when you changed over to one of these tube amps. Also please suggest what kind of music do you listen to mostly.
 
To be honest Pani when I have heard Naim amps paired with Tannoy speakers I always found it a match made in hell, and would never recommend that pairing at all, it just does not work in my opinion.

I suppose I must qualify that statement and say I have not heard your particular flavour of Naim Amp. (Please note I am not a Naim hater I was once fairly high up the Naim ladder myself)
 
The reason Tannoy recommends a 50 watts amp has nothing to do with the Tannoys being a difficult load. They are a nominal 8ohm impedance and 93dB efficient. The problem is controlling that 10" cone correctly at normal to loud listen levels. The problem gets even worse if the cone is larger like 12" or 15". For these large cone drivers you really need about 50watts to control the cone properly, as well as an amp with a low output impedance and a good damping factor. For this criteria solid state fits the bill very well although some valve designs (push pull with NFB) can also work well.
 
Graham,

he problem is controlling that 10" cone correctly at normal to loud listen levels. The problem gets even worse if the cone is larger like 12" or 15". For these large cone drivers you really need about 50watts to control the cone properly, as well as an amp with a low output impedance and a good damping factor.
Is this also true for big vintage Tannoys with 15 Ω woofers?

Joe
 
Hi pani,

Much like you - I've done the Naim Nait thing three times in my life with an original version in 1986, then a Nait 2 ( Olive ) in 2002, which I sold in 2003, it wasn't until last year about this time that I got another Nait 2 ( Olive ) and enjoyed it until a friend of mine whom is the moderator for a group in the states sold me a Woodham Audio Kalypso by CR Developments from England ( EL84 based ) - that I found myself placing said Nait 2 - along with an Audiomat Arpege 10 Reference into the closet, and as a result haven't remotely thought about going back to either.

Long story short - the Nait 2 was sold last Friday.

What I'm getting at, as you might recall?, I've heard the entire Leben line at a place in Cleveland, Ohio called Don Better Audio and while two friends and I were taken back by its overall sound - it wasn't until the owner/dealer replaced it with a Shindo Labs Appetite ( EL84 @ 15 w/pc ) that we became aware that to all of our ears this was indeed a richer - more refined - more textured - more beautiful sounding amp, and in fact made said Leben C-300XS as well as their CS-600 sound more akin to what I'd call hybrid amps with more of a slight solid state edge to them.

And, having owned an Almarro A318B, back in 2007/09, and selling it only to regret doing so later - I'd have to say because of the fact that it was a SET based amp with those 6C33C's and used with a pair of Brimar 6SL7GT ( Black Glass NOS 1950's ) I was in heaven and came to realize only after letting it go, how much I had actually missed it.

Now, I'm all down with the sense of PRAT that Naim is renowned for, but as I see/hear it through said A318B and now through the Kalypso - it's about compromises that best suit my sense of maturity as well as being able to get beyond said factors and now be at a point in my life - where I'm able to enjoy a boarder range of music in a more intimate manner.

Simple put - I've outgrown Naim..........., and can only look forward to the future with said amp in my system thats brings tears to my eyes upon powering it up - it's nothing more then coming to the realization of what we lost when we began pursuing solid state amps back in 1963 or thereabouts - Musicality.

Yet, some tube amps do it better then others - and it's just a matter of selecting your taste/flavor carefully - but for me - I'd much rather have the linear sound of either tubes like the 6C33C's or EL84's any day as opposed to the lusher sounding EL34's in which I had become all to accustomed to since 1989.

There's a how how do I put it -
Correctness - Rightness about what I'm hearing now that has me sitting on my hands/knees and begging for more. As I've mentioned to a few friends here in the states - I'm at a point where I finally know that through inner-growth I'm done amp/speaker wise as both have opened up my mind/ears to a point where I'd have to add that my point of diminishing returns has kicked in - and if it gets better then what I'm hearing/loving/feeling right now?, I'd care less.

I'm done. Bring on the various cartridges - tubes and Vinyl.

Enough is enough.

This simple little 15 w/pc amp driving speakers rated at 86dB, are both filling my entire home/space with music that is beautifully rendered unlike anything I've heard short of said A318B and taking into account your speakers are more efficient then might - pani - you should be in Heaven.

I hope this helps in clearing up matters?. One can't stop growth. It's time to move onwards.

Regards,
o_O scar
 
Oops!,

Music wise, I'd say that 98.8% of it is Acoustic Jazz from say 1954/63 with some thrown in between 1970 to current re-issues and mostly pressed in Japan - the Netherlands - Germany or Canada.

The other small percentage is divided between R&B - Folk - Acoustic Blues - Classical - Soft Rock/Pop - Techno/House/Rave/Electronia.

As mentioned on another post earlier on this week - I'm older then some - but I'm not dead yet and can still appreciate said forms of music for what they are " Uplifting ".

Oh, and pani - whichever amp you decide on?, PM - because I've a Speaker Cable for you - and it blew those Crimson RM Music-Links out of the water, these are made of pure silver solid core - and I'm here to tell you right now that with tube amps - I haven't heard better short of the crazy priced asked for Audio Note / Kondo Japan or Shindo Labs Silver Cables.

But hearing - is believing.

Peace,
o_O scar
 
Not heard the Leben but can confidently say that the Almarro is within the top three amps I have heard in my quarter of a century hifi obsession. It has beaten many solid state and valve comers and is the amp that I have stayed with.
 
A few days ago I posted that I have only tried my Cheviots with my Linn Majik and Berning ZH270. It slipped my memory that I had tried a Nait XS with the Cheviots and was very impressed with the synergy. Bass lines thump along effortlessly. It lacked the mid range transparency of my Berning. The Nait XS totally out classed the Linn Majik.
 


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