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Sugden A21ai or Leben CS300 or ???

G

greg788

pfm Member
I've narrowed down a shortlist of amps to the Sugden or Leben. These would drive Revolver Music 1 speakers, which are very efficient and tube friendly. I can't demo either. Any thoughts based on personal experience? I'm leaning towards the Leben (and its headphone output is also a plus) but the simplicity of solid state is a good thing. Outside contenders would be EL34 push pull amps like Primaluna or Audio Space.
 
I've heard both and both are nice amps. Personally I enjoyed the Leben the most, despite not really being a fan of tubes.

I think Midlands Audio Exchange are stockists?
 
I'd second that..I have owned both Sugden and Leben (cs 600). Leben is wonderfully built, looks great and sounds great.More expensive but a lovely thing to own Sugden is ok, but no Leben,,,so Leben unless you need to save the money and want the ultimate reliability of sold state(which valves can't give, although Leben stuff is generally reliable).
 
I have a Leben 300xs and it is surprisingly powerful for a quoted 15w. I have not heard the 600 but understand it may have a darker sound, less lively sound. The 300 may be enough to drive your speakers...
 
I've heard both, love both. But in regards to the Leben gear as hear after anything Shindo Labs makes and you begin to realize it's not the most tube sounding stuff out there and sounds more akin to what both Audio Research Corp. And Conrad-Johnson are doing these days - trying to sound more like Solid State then tubes. Here in the states the same company that brings in both Leben and Shindo has bought in another line of tube amps that are cheaper - but are getting a great deal of attention called LM Audio ( Line Magnectic ) or something of that nature and their EL-34 based integrated cost $1.650 here, so I would imagine it's even cheaper there. I hope this helps?. Regards,Oscar
 
Slightly puzzled by the last remarks: I own a Shindo Labs preamp (Monbrisson) and have owned Leben stuff too. They certainly don't sound like solid state to my ears, there is a quite obvious 'flow' to the music, rather like clear running water.Whether that is a 'valve sound' depends on what you expect of valves.They certainly don't all sound the same....as always it is what you like. However, I would repeat that as an 'object' to own and enjoy, Leben is head and shoulders above Sugden. As it should be given the cost.
 
paskinn said:
Slightly puzzled by the last remarks: I own a Shindo Labs preamp (Monbrisson) and have owned Leben stuff too. They certainly don't sound like solid state to my ears, there is a quite obvious 'flow' to the music, rather like clear running water.Whether that is a 'valve sound' depends on what you expect of valves.They certainly don't all sound the same....as always it is what you like. However, I would repeat that as an 'object' to own and enjoy, Leben is head and shoulders above Sugden. As it should be given the cost.
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All I was attempted to say is that two friends and I went to audition the Leben and Shindo Labs stuff two years ago - while listening to the Leben CX-600 ( the 30w/pc EL-34 based one ) first we all enjoyed it very very much, but once Don Better switched over to the Shindo Monbrison and Montrachet is was all over!, as it had a more natural flow with a more textured and delicate balance as well as offering a greater sense of emotional involvement whereas it made the Leben in question sound more like what many current tube amp designers are trying to do with their amps - adding bandwidth and detailing at the overall expense of beauty. The Shindo gear while costing more granted - just had what I'd term that Old School tube sound of days gone by - but even better as it was the best I've ever heard from any tube gear in regards to bass nimbleness - agility - pitch and tightness. In my mind they're worlds apart - and in saying that why would I want a tube amp that lacks the warmth of tubes as it was common prior to the early 90's. Some companies merely have lost sight of what put them on the map to begin with - Fidelity above resolution for the sake of sales. YMMV. Cheers,Oscar
 
Case in point - Jonathan at Tone Audio Imports here in the states has great taste in tube amps as well as a great ear, as does John DeVore in my opinion as I love my Gibbon 3's as well as their slightly larger stablemate the Gibbon 3XL's. And John would never and I mean never do an Audio Show with nothing less then very very very musical gear surrounding his designs. He has used both Leben and Shindo in pass shows - but last year he was found in the company of LM Audio ( A cheaper way to please the masses by the way - and Tubey sounding to boot ). http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2011/10/20/rmaf-2011-devore-lm-audio/ Enjoy, Oscar
 
CS300 is way too hot when powered on for 15mins or more in normal room temp of 26degree celsius

i reckon that since it gets so hot outside, can you imagine the heat within that tight space.

with that amount of heat, the electronics component wont have last their expected shelf-life
 
timeout said:
CS300 is way too hot when powered on for 15mins or more in normal room temp of 26degree celsius

i reckon that since it gets so hot outside, can you imagine the heat within that tight space.

with that amount of heat, the electronics component wont have last their expected shelf-life
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Surely that's just heat rising, as expected, from the 4 x EL84s. The caps etc are are all tucked well below decks - it's standard tube amp practice; tubes up top, stuff that doesn't like getting hot tucked below. I'd not expect it to get too hot down there. There are some pictures of the CS-300 on 6 Moons here.
 
Possibly a silly question, but why have you narrowed it down to those two models without hearing them?
 
Tony L said:
Surely that's just heat rising, as expected, from the 4 x EL84s. The caps etc are are all tucked well below decks - it's standard tube amp practice; tubes up top, stuff that doesn't like getting hot tucked below. I'd not expect it to get too hot down there. There are some pictures of the CS-300 on 6 Moons here.
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to be frank, the whole chassis is hot and hot. including the knobs. at least the side wood panel offer some relieve

i experienced it, and the heat is unbearable as my room is not air-conditioned

I seen and experienced the CS600 too, oh man that is double the mini CS300

btw, unless your room is air-conditioned, big or now is Winter time; then it's altogether a different story

to add:i should have measured the temperature
 
Timeout - In that case I think you must have had a defective CS300 or you already live in the tropics. i have owned two versions of the CS300 over the past 7-8 years and have never had any heat issues whatsoever - compared to many other valve amps I have owned - BAT, ARC, Cary, Jadis, Manley, VTL I would say the little CS300 runs the coolest - there is a limit to how much heat those little EL84s throw off.

For Greg, I have never heard the sugden but have been intrigued by what I have read - however, the little Leben is a tremendously musical amp and sound much more punchy than its 15 watt suggest. Will no doubt drive the revolvers really well -
 
My Leben cs 600 did not run partcularly hot...you could comfortably put your hand on the outer casing. About what you would expect; I have never heard of reliability issues with these amps. It might be true that they 'age' more quickly than cool running solid state, but they are easily serviced and sound wonderful.I am a great admirerer of Japanese 'boutique' hi fi; such as Shindo, Leben, Yamamoto , Air Tight, Audionote-kondo.
 
The Leben. It's a wonderful unit. There is just something special about the Leben that solid-state amps can't match. If you have a speaker that is efficient, the Leben is a no brainer.

We've compared a lot of solid-state amps with a Leben CS600 side by side(Rega Elicit, LFD LEIII, Sugden A21 original version, Naim chrome bumpers, Pathos Logos, various Sansui and Luxman vintage) to a pair of Harbeth and nothing beats the sweetness of the Leben. The transparency and airiness in the highs are a notch higher with the Leben.
 
Has anyone compared thw Leben CS300 and CS300XS? From Leben's website, the standard CS300 gives 12W and the CS300XS gives 15W. The XS uses different components:

■RESISTORS: Precision Industrial Grade +/-1%
■FIRST-STAGE BY-PASS CONDENSOR: An ultimate audio condensor "OS Condensor" developped by "SANYO"
■LAST-STAGE BY-PASS CONDENSOR: "Fine-Gold" by "NICHICON"
■JOINT CONDENSOR: "Metalized Polypropylene Condensor" with "Mesh-Shielding".
■NF OVERSHOOT PREVENTION CONDENSOR: Ceramic Conderser.
■CATHODE RESISTOR: 4W type.(Instead of 3W type)
■OUTPUT TRANSFORMER: Newly developped Transformer with wider range for high frequency.
■WBT type binding post

Does the XS sound much better?
 
If you want more 'tube warmth' use Mullard tubes. I replaced the tubes in my xs with Mazda and am happy. Doubt you can beat it for the price.
 
I've had a Leben CS300XS for 3 years.
The best upgrade I ever made was fitting a set of EAT cool dampers. Really sharpened up the imaging. Like tuning in to a radio station.
the CS300 originally came with Mullard valves but Leben only had a limited supply, so they are now fitted with new Sovteks.
I was told by my hifi dealer that the circuitry upgrades in the 300XS were significant and more than compensate for this.

BTW the Leben amp is gorgeous. I did write a lengthy review at the time waxing lyrical but unfortunately I cant find it. It really has got soul.
 
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