Ribbon Tweeters

[tuga]

There are these little fellas:
http://neatacoustics.com/iota/
http://neatacoustics.com/iota-alpha/
I own the alphas. They're certainly more extended and transparent in the treble than other speakers I've owned, albeit they were mostly all soft dome tweeter models of 90s vintage.

More extended means that the tweeter can produce sound at higher frequencies. Since most tweeters can go beyond the human audible range, that is probably not what you are experiencing.
Generally when a tweeter attracts attention this means that either it is producing distortion and/or that it has been poorly integrated and as a result is "playing louder" than the other drivers.

 

[tuga]

One consequence of narrow vertical dispersion is that you won't get much floor and ceiling reflection.
I like the sound of ESL 63s, everything seems to fit together. Not practical for my home in the tropics unfortunately

On the other hand this may be the reason why such a tweeter may sound "disconnect" from the rest of the spectrum.

 

[NotOneIota]

More extended means that the tweeter can produce sound at higher frequencies. Since most tweeters can go beyond the human audible range, that is probably not what you are experiencing.
Generally when a tweeter attracts attention this means that either it is producing distortion and/or that it has been poorly integrated and as a result is "playing louder" than the other drivers.

Good point!
What I meant was they 'sound' more extended...
I have no idea how they measure objectively compared to the other speakers but they certainly sound like there are more layers of HF information if that makes any sense. Usually rather than sounding distorted they sound like there's more 'space' than I'm used to.
That's not an unqualified positive either - with certain tracks they can sound too bright as the volume winds up - which is maybe what you're saying about 'playing louder' - a tonal balance issue.
I'm not claiming this is unique to ribbon tweeters - it's just unique to the limited set of tweeters I've had in my system over the years.

 

[cjyosemite]

[QUOTE="Telstar, post:
..........There still exist very good silk domes that costs 50 bucks each........ but I think they are a better compromise than cheap ribbons.
Let's make an example with ProAC which everybody knows: the R versions do sound worse than their dome counterpart and older models. [/QUOTE]

Well it is all a matter of opinion at the end of the day. I replaced my ProAc D18's just over a year ago with a pair of D20R's. Same cabinet, same bass/mid-range unit, only obvious change is from dome to ribbon tweeter. I really liked the dome tweeter in the D18's as I thought they had a wonderful sparkle - but a short while ago someone on here was criticising them for an exaggerated treble - maybe they are the same thing, maybe not. Before purchase of the D20R's I had heard a lot of favourable comments about ribbon tweeters but my initial impression was one of some disappointment in the treble as they lacked that sparkle of the D18's domes. However I still liked the sound of them as they seemed more subtle. I commented on this to my dealer & he said it would take about 6 months for them to be run-in properly & I would now say he was right on that point as they still retain that extra subtlety but the sparkle has returned. Overall I am very pleased with them as all aspects of the sound seem that much better, particularly the bass. The old saying of "what you never have you never miss" certainly applies here as I did not miss the bass with the D18s but I would now. I would not describe myself as a fan of ribbon tweeters as I also like dome tweeters, but I am a fan of ProAc - & also a fan of Spendor with my A5R's often revealing more in the mid-range & bass than the A5's they replaced.

Perhaps it is just a question of getting used to a certain sound after a period of time, but to me speakers are one area of hi-fi where improvements continue to be consistently made as the music just seems to be more & more enjoyable with more detail when in theory it ought to be going in the opposite direction due to my ears getting older - or perhaps I am just happy with my music - who knows for certain what makes us enjoy those things which are special to each of us.

 

[Quintessential Audio]

I've been a fan of ribbon tweeters for a long time, but it really is a subjective matter. As with anything HiFi, there is no hard and fast rule to tweeters, they're all different. I've heard some sublime domes and I've heard some shrill brash ones too. One thing I've not yet found is a terrible sounding ribbon, they're out there I'm sure, but all the ribbons I've heard to date have an ease of sound to them, and an openness that I rarely hear with domes. I think maybe it's just that I have got used to them now and think I would struggle going back to a done tweeter...but never say never.
I also agree that they take some time to sound their best from new, but then again, I personally find that of almost all hifi equipment.

 

[Ryonan]

*cough cough* Listen to a pair of D80 and you'll change your mind (hopefully ).

alright.... D80 it is.... let me check it out this weekend.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

I commented on this to my dealer & he said it would take about 6 months for them to be run-in properly & I would now say he was right on that point as they still retain that extra subtlety but the sparkle has returned. Overall I am very pleased with them as all aspects of the sound seem that much better, particularly the bass. The old saying of "what you never have you never miss" certainly applies here as I did not miss the bass with the D18s but I would now.

I do think we acclimatise to a new sound (think room or hall acoustics) but run in can make a difference too. But a surprising effect of better HF is how it improves the LF. When I isolated the HF/MF cabs of some earlier speakers, it was the bass that improved much more than the HF/MF. I believe it is due to the cleaner response of the higher frequencies making "bass" transients faster. Low frequencies don't have the sharp transients of the higher ones, but the harmonics do, making the bass sound faster. At least that is how I understand it. Some users of supertweeters have noticed the same thing.

 

[davidsrsb]

A typical ribbon design, the Quad S 2 reviewed by Stereophile
The tweeter looks about 3dB too hot to me
https://www.stereophile.com/content/quad-s-2-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[Telstar]

A typical ribbon design, the Quad S 2 reviewed by Stereophile
The tweeter looks about 3dB too hot to me
https://www.stereophile.com/content/quad-s-2-loudspeaker-measurements

That is how it affects the bass perception

 

[Tarzan]

The Quad S series have ribbon tweeters. I haven't heard them, and while some might not consider £500+ speakers to be "budget" offerings, they're not exactly bank busters either.

For the money the S1 and S2 are brilliant!

 

[S-Man]

A typical ribbon design, the Quad S 2 reviewed by Stereophile
The tweeter looks about 3dB too hot to me
https://www.stereophile.com/content/quad-s-2-loudspeaker-measurements

Maybe they up it a bit to account for the poor vertical dispersion?
Or maybe just marketing (like you said)?
Or maybe to balance the bass hump, to make the speaker sound bigger?

 

[tuga]

Well it is all a matter of opinion at the end of the day. I replaced my ProAc D18's just over a year ago with a pair of D20R's. Same cabinet, same bass/mid-range unit, only obvious change is from dome to ribbon tweeter. I really liked the dome tweeter in the D18's as I thought they had a wonderful sparkle - but a short while ago someone on here was criticising them for an exaggerated treble - maybe they are the same thing, maybe not. Before purchase of the D20R's I had heard a lot of favourable comments about ribbon tweeters but my initial impression was one of some disappointment in the treble as they lacked that sparkle of the D18's domes. However I still liked the sound of them as they seemed more subtle. I commented on this to my dealer & he said it would take about 6 months for them to be run-in properly & I would now say he was right on that point as they still retain that extra subtlety but the sparkle has returned. Overall I am very pleased with them as all aspects of the sound seem that much better, particularly the bass. The old saying of "what you never have you never miss" certainly applies here as I did not miss the bass with the D18s but I would now. I would not describe myself as a fan of ribbon tweeters as I also like dome tweeters, but I am a fan of ProAc - & also a fan of Spendor with my A5R's often revealing more in the mid-range & bass than the A5's they replaced.

Perhaps it is just a question of getting used to a certain sound after a period of time, but to me speakers are one area of hi-fi where improvements continue to be consistently made as the music just seems to be more & more enjoyable with more detail when in theory it ought to be going in the opposite direction due to my ears getting older - or perhaps I am just happy with my music - who knows for certain what makes us enjoy those things which are special to each of us.

The exaggerated treble used to be part of ProAc's house sound in the past. I haven't listened to any of their models recently.

 

[davidsrsb]

First you get speakers with exaggerated treble, complain about transistor grain and attempt to tame it with valves and cables. All at great expense

 

[awkwardbydesign]

First you get speakers with exaggerated treble, complain about transistor grain and attempt to tame it with valves and cables. All at great expense

In my case it is the dome tweeters that have that effect. So I have got rid of them. No amplifier or cable changes worked, nor a better DAC and streamer. But at least I now have all those for the foreseeable future.

 

[Fatmarley]

In my case it is the dome tweeters that have that effect. So I have got rid of them. No amplifier or cable changes worked, nor a better DAC and streamer. But at least I now have all those for the foreseeable future.

Thought you had a peak in your hearing at 8k? Or was it someone else?

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Thought you had a peak in your hearing at 8k? Or was it someone else?

Quite right. But that means I am sensitive to certain issues. So what exactly is your point?

 

[Fatmarley]

Quite right. But that means I am sensitive to certain issues. So what exactly is your point?

All I do know Is lots of people (me Included) use or have used speakers with dome tweeters and don't suffer from the same problem as you. Not sure why ribbon tweeters would be any different though.

 

[gizze]

I have tried the Quad S2 and the Z3, much prefer the S2, the Z3 just didn't integrate as well for me.

The S2s I love, they are actually my main speaker at the moment, I was looking for some Harbeth C7s, but I have sort of stopped as I just love the little S2s with a Rel sub.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

All I do know Is lots of people (me Included) use or have used speakers with dome tweeters and don't suffer from the same problem as you. Not sure why ribbon tweeters would be any different though.

Admittedly not every dome is a problem for me, but enough to lead me to try alternatives. Bear in mind this is an opinion built over 47 years. And I know that the hardware has changed, also my hearing, tastes and prejudices, but there is definitely a pattern. However, in my experience non-domes do something for me, just as DHT valves, full range drivers and Decca cartridges do. I think it is a common fallacy for people to assume that what works for them is a universal truth. As you pointed out, my hearing is not the same as, for instance, yours. But is anyone's? So trying to make one size fit all, and arguing about it, it is a waste of energy.

 

[Fatmarley]

Admittedly not every dome is a problem for me, but enough to lead me to try alternatives. Bear in mind this is an opinion built over 47 years. And I know that the hardware has changed, also my hearing, tastes and prejudices, but there is definitely a pattern. However, in my experience non-domes do something for me, just as DHT valves, full range drivers and Decca cartridges do. I think it is a common fallacy for people to assume that what works for them is a universal truth. As you pointed out, my hearing is not the same as, for instance, yours. But is anyone's? So trying to make one size fit all, and arguing about it, it is a waste of energy.

I'm too old (feel It anyway) and tired to argue. Was just thinking It may be your hearing problems that are exaggerating what you are hearing.

Would be Interesting to hear what you think of the compression drivers I'm using now. They have Incredibly low distortion compared to all the dome tweeters I've measured and a flat response (due to my crossover) but when I play a movie with glass breaking, It sounds very dynamic and real. I can Imagine some people finding It a bit too much for their tastes and yet there's nothing In the measurements that would suggest a problem.