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Harbeth and Graham and Focal, oh my . . .

plimpington2

pfm Member
Was able to spend a few hours with Harbeth and Graham and Focal today. All with my amp (the Leben CS300XS) and with the Accuphase E-270 integrated amplifier. Specifically, the M30.1 and Super HL5+
As well as the Graham LS5/9 and the Focal Sopra No. 1. I had never heard speakers from any of those brands before, and the Accuphase was new to me as well.

I EXPECTED to like the Harbeths the best, but was generally disappointed in them. They sounded closed-in to me. The treble was soft and too polite, and I just felt that neither the M30.1 nor the Super HL5+ was sufficiently “lit” for my tastes. Neither was particularly dynamic either - just kind of polite. Bass was surprising deep and tight (even with the little Leben), and I had no cause to complain on that account for either Harbeth model. But that being said, they didn’t have the get-up and go I would have liked (or that I am used to). Midrange was very good, as expected. It seemed to “breath”, in a way that I hadn’t heard in my system before. But I wonder if it didn’t border on sounding just a bit overly sonerous or “thick” on occasion. It was an issue on some recordings, but not on others (I though the M30.1 was better in this respect than the Super 5’s . . . The 30 was a bit better lit as well. It MAY VERY WELL BE that I am acclimated to having brighter, more forward speakers as I have had Rega speakers in one version or another for many years.

I liked the Focals better than either Harbeth, but I also thought they were the most “Hi-fi” of the bunch. They reminded me a lot of a pair of Proac Tablette 2000’s I had several years ago. They were the most efficient ones of the day, and my amp had the easiest time with them. They seemed very “technically” good, with an extended and resolved upper end (though less “airy” than I would have expected. Bass was tight and fast, and reasonably well extended. But they didn’t move me. I thought their particular virtues seemed available in a thousand other (albeit expensive) speaker brands. For almost $9000 with stands, I didn’t think they were at all special.

Without question, to my ears, the Graham LS5/9’s were the best. Dynamic as hell, even as my Leben seemed to reach its limit with them in the (admittedly) large room (I’d say it was 20 x 20 feet, at least). Bass was AMAZING. Tight, articulate and it just plain MOVED!! Moreover, the tweeter was extended and detailed, without ever sounding etched or fatiguing. I’m surprised a bit by this because the tweeter is larger than is typical (about 1.5 inches). The midrange was as natural as I’ve ever heard (if not quite as projected out into the room as my long-time favorite Spica TC-50’s). Nevertheless, the speaker images really well for me (also surprising). They just sounded “right” to me, and these are the speakers to get for me. I will admit, however, that they are EXPENSIVE - almost $7000 for these pretty smallish monitors. But THIS is the one to beat for me at this point. I REALLY liked them.

Finally, a word about the amplifiers. Frankly, I preferred my Leben to the Accuphase, Which was shocking to me given the Accuphase reputation. I thought both “moved” equally well (I grew up on Naim for about 15 years - if it doesn’t move, I can’t abode it - the Leben never ceases to amaze me with its ability to deliver appropriate PRaT, despite that it is tubr based), but the Leben sounded “bigger” and more “airy” and just more sophisticated overall. The problem with my Leben is that it runs out of steam. The Accuphase, on the other hand, seemed to have limitless power. But i didn’t think it sounded particularly special, as I had been expecting given the reputation of the brand of late. And it was $5000.

Anyway, that’s how I heard it today.

Judd
 
From your description you might like DeVore. The O96 is not much more than those prices and certainly 'moves' !
 
Interesting observations, thanks. I’ve been mulling the idea of Harbeth with my cs300x, but more likely the P3esr. Still a combo I’d like to hear, but your comment about lack of air and top end sparkle has me wondering. I’m running mine with Linn Kans at the moment, which I admit is not a common combo, but needs must as my Tannoy crossovers are away for repair. Its suprisingly effective though, and also comming from a Naim background, gives me just enough of that PRAT bounce and tiz that I’m used to, along with the sweet and lifelike midrange of the Leben.
The Tannoy’s are wonderful, but will probably have to go into storage for a while next year due to a upcomming move, where the new room isn’t really suiable for them.
 
I EXPECTED to like the Harbeths the best, but was generally disappointed in them.

I"m not really surpriced, some Harbeths seem to be overrated, in generel too polite and slow in basnotes IME
Expensive Focals are terrible, both looks and soundwise IMO

The Grahams is however superb and much more to my likings
 
The comments on the P£ESR chime with em as well; a definite sense of 'shut in' on the top end. Good little speaker, but somewhat over rated, IMO.

My current Scansonic MB-1s are significantly ahead on the SQ front and around the same money. The Graham is a nice speaker, but I found it needed quite careful room positioning and a fair amount of space around it to stop it being a tad boomy, at times. In a similar fashion to the M30.1, which is no real surprise. Once I've settled in my new gaff I want to revisit that type/size of stand mount.
 
I haven't heard the M30.1, but I've been told of that 'shut in' quality.

I have enormous respect for Derek Hughes, he doesn't seem to get as much praise as he should.

If the Graham loudspeakers are a little too expensive, Derek did the design-work for Stirling Broadcast.

There is a fascinating film of Derek discussing the design of the LS5/9. I found his comment about cone-material interesting.
http://www.grahamaudio.co.uk/technology/video/
 
thanks judd and thanks jowcal for that vid link . i know little of graham . i have been meaning to hear the harbeth shl5 sometime . would you just explain a bit more what you mean by `lit`?

certainly focal diablo i have had in the past have been very natural . dynamic and a joy to have . used with belles class a/b monoblocks

we recently ran a leben cs600 with my verity audio reinzi and it was a bit shrill on some track s for my ears , nowhere near as good as my valve pre /class a ss power amp combo
 
Most speakers exaggerate the treble so it's natural that more "accurately"-balanced speakers sound dark to a lot of people.
In the end I guess it all depends on one's tastes in music and in "presentation".
The top octave is generally accepted as being responsible for a sense of "air" and many audiophiles prefer "soundstage" and "airyness" over more accurate timbre.

The M30s have a better tweeter than the LS5/9s which probably accounts for some of the "politeness" you're referring to.

I haven't listened to the GA LS5/9s but I would probably like them since they were fine-tuned by Derek Hughes who was responsible for the design of my current speakers and a pair of SP9/1s that I had for some time and sold before moving abroad.

R
 
Most speakers exaggerate the treble so it's natural that more "accurately"-balanced speakers sound dark to a lot of people.
In the end I guess it all depends on one's tastes in music and in "presentation".
The top octave is generally accepted as being responsible for a sense of "air" and many audiophiles prefer "soundstage" and "airyness" over more accurate timbre.

The M30s have a better tweeter than the LS5/9s which probably accounts for some of the "politeness" you're referring to.

I haven't listened to the GA LS5/9s but I would probably like them since they were fine-tuned by Derek Hughes who was responsible for the design of my current speakers and a pair of SP9/1s that I had for some time and sold before moving abroad.

R
the ls5/9 tweeter is made by audax. just as good as the seas tweeter in the m30.1
actually its a larger tweeter which makes it better acoustically as matching a 8 inch woofer at 3khz to a 1 inch tweeter is a serious compromise. the audax tweeter is 1.5 inch i think so better technically to integrate

the graham are not boomy. blame the speaker or listening position placement if any boominess is experienced

anyway
i own the shl5+ and the graham ls5/9
i love both but ill likely keep the graham at the end

i also own the p3esr and yeah they sound a little closed-in in the midrange. hard to explain exactly i think its related to how small the image is but the sound is not expansive. i still love the p3esr and will never sell my pair. overated my ass, the ls50 is a piece of garbage if you call the p3esr overated. if you listen at low level, with a sub, the p3esr midrange embarass almost anything ive ever cared to compare. yes even devore 093. i listen at 75db and at that pevel the p3esr are just wonderful
 
The comments on the P£ESR chime with em as well; a definite sense of 'shut in' on the top end. Good little speaker, but somewhat over rated, IMO.

My current Scansonic MB-1s are significantly ahead on the SQ front and around the same money. The Graham is a nice speaker, but I found it needed quite careful room positioning and a fair amount of space around it to stop it being a tad boomy, at times. In a similar fashion to the M30.1, which is no real surprise. Once I've settled in my new gaff I want to revisit that type/size of stand mount.

Hifi news measured the MB-5s and the waterfall shows a tremendous break-up resonance right where the ear is most sensitive, noticeable also in the frequency response plot at 2500Hz. This should sound unpleasant with violins and clarinets but may also give a subjective impression of "detail" or "resolution"; but significantly ahead they are not.
 
Most speakers exaggerate the treble so it's natural that more "accurately"-balanced speakers sound dark to a lot of people.
In the end I guess it all depends on one's tastes in music and in "presentation".
The top octave is generally accepted as being responsible for a sense of "air" and many audiophiles prefer "soundstage" and "airyness" over more accurate timbre.

The M30s have a better tweeter than the LS5/9s which probably accounts for some of the "politeness" you're referring to.

I haven't listened to the GA LS5/9s but I would probably like them since they were fine-tuned by Derek Hughes who was responsible for the design of my current speakers and a pair of SP9/1s that I had for some time and sold before moving abroad.

R

I don’t know - this doesn’t sound quite right to me. In my experience, there is a great deal more high frequency information/content from live music than I get from any speaker. My kids play drums, bass and sax at home, and the high frequency content of the drum kit, for instance (including not only the high-hat/cymbals but also the high frequency content of the leading edges of drum hits, etc) is a lot more prominent than I have ever heard from speakers. I’m NOT saying it’s necessary to have that to enjoy a set of speakers (in fact, I’d say shelving things down a bit is probably better for long-term enjoyment), but to say that the polite nature of the Harbeth presentation is closer to live doesn’t ring true for me.

Judd
 
I don’t know - this doesn’t sound quite right to me. In my experience, there is a great deal more high frequency information/content from live music than I get from any speaker. My kids play drums, bass and sax at home, and the high frequency content of the drum kit, for instance (including not only the high-hat/cymbals but also the high frequency content of the leading edges of drum hits, etc) is a lot more prominent than I have ever heard from speakers. I’m NOT saying it’s necessary to have that to enjoy a set of speakers (in fact, I’d say shelving things down a bit is probably better for long-term enjoyment), but to say that the polite nature of the Harbeth presentation is closer to live doesn’t ring true for me.

Judd

Unfortunately live and recorded are different realities. There are limits to what can be achieved in recording and playback, and besides the recordings that aim at representing reality are scarce in classical music and jazz and practically non-existent in rock&pop.
Drums are brought down in level in a mix to better blend with the rest of the band and often the mics roll-off at the extreme top.

You could email Playclassics and request their recordings of a drum kit; these are quite natural-sounding and they will even give you a tone to adjust the sound level. Just don't expect much with toy speakers like the LS3/5a but with the larger boxes it does sound good.
 
The L300 is the best small valve integrated I've ever heard, and it suits some speakers so well you need never move again. I'm mildly suprised that the Accuphase/harbeth combo didn't do well...on paper I'd have that down as heaven, but not amazed at Focals. As an ex owner, I think they are Very Good but
well.
BUT.
enough said.
 
the ls5/9 tweeter is made by audax. just as good as the seas tweeter in the m30.1
actually its a larger tweeter which makes it better acoustically as matching a 8 inch woofer at 3khz to a 1 inch tweeter is a serious compromise. the audax tweeter is 1.5 inch i think so better technically to integrate

Try saying that to a Snell/Audio note K fan (8" midbass - 3/4" tweeter)
 
the ls5/9 tweeter is made by audax. just as good as the seas tweeter in the m30.1
actually its a larger tweeter which makes it better acoustically as matching a 8 inch woofer at 3khz to a 1 inch tweeter is a serious compromise. the audax tweeter is 1.5 inch i think so better technically to integrate

the graham are not boomy. blame the speaker or listening position placement if any boominess is experienced

anyway
i own the shl5+ and the graham ls5/9
i love both but ill likely keep the graham at the end

i also own the p3esr and yeah they sound a little closed-in in the midrange. hard to explain exactly i think its related to how small the image is but the sound is not expansive. i still love the p3esr and will never sell my pair. overated my ass, the ls50 is a piece of garbage if you call the p3esr overated. if you listen at low level, with a sub, the p3esr midrange embarass almost anything ive ever cared to compare. yes even devore 093. i listen at 75db and at that pevel the p3esr are just wonderful

Your post adds some value to the discussion as an owner of both Harbeth SHL5 Plus and Graham LS5/9. Just like the OP here, it is interesting that you will eventually go with the Graham LS5/9 although both are appealing to you. I would appreciate if you can briefly describe on the reasons you would pick the LS5/9 over the SHL5 Plus.

Again, interesting impressions on both Harbeth P3ESR and KEF LS50. Folks can say whatever they want - overrated, rubbish etc. not only with the P3ESR but basically anything else. I usually wouldn't take these comments seriously but people are entitled to their opinions so to each his own.
 
Hi Ryder, I think you own shl5+.

Contrary to the OP, I love my shl5+ and love my ls5/9 as well. The SHL5+ are slightly darker then the graham. the graham to me strike a perfect balance between detailed and lively yet not too bright or forward. Think harbeth midrange but more dynamic, faster and seem to convey more nuance. the treble is particularly alive, bright and sparkly yet not too bright. the Harbeth are more polite. The harbeth however have that sort of "magic" that is hard to let go. Im still not sure which ill keep as to be honest both makes me happy and I could easily live with any of them.

the graham image slightly better in that the musicians have more space between each other and there's a very solid phantom center. the harbeth have wonderful imaging but slightly more stuck around the box.
the harbeth have more bass extension which for some music is noticeable but for jazz i dont hear much difference.

I think you will really need to compare both. they sound surprisingly very close to each other to be honest.

about kef ls50 and p3esr, I own both. I find the ls50 are significantly less accurate so not sure how id describe the ls50 if the p3esr are "overated"
 
There's a bit more to a speaker's performance than the diameter of its drivers, though.
But you can't deny the physics, and it's not just how high or low those drivers can reach. The dispersion of an 8" mid-woofer will be comparatively narrow at the top end of its reach, whereas a tweeter will radiate quite evenly at its lower reaches. All this is fine if you only ever listen on axis, but many people do not.
 


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