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So. Assisted Suicide. Good or Bad idea?

Derek Wright said:
There is a chink of light in this process. If one suffers from a Pulmonary Fibrossis the District Nurse in conjunction with the patients Doctor can be issued with a drug that will ease the patient into permanent sleep and death. The doctor district nurse will inject the drug when the patient's discomfort becomes unacceptable. However the patent has to be in a pretty poor state to get the injection - drowning in the phlegm in their lungs.
So far I have not been prescribed the drugs. My brother did not have the drugs and he had a very disturbing death however it was not too long but no doubt very disturbing.

So there is some progress.
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Ok , yes my uncle who was an incredible guy , at one time very senior in NHS pensions got pulmonary fibrosis . HORRENDOUS disease . he could barely move without crippling breathlessness . fortunately he was well supported at his end and throughout the end stage

If you get terminal cancer , or terminal dementia or any disease that looks like death on the horizon . you are put on oral painkillers and drugs to help phlegm etc . when you reach that time when you can no longer swallow tablets the district nurse in conjunction with GP can set up a syringe driver . this can have up to 3 drugs in it. there are a number of drugs for chest secretions as dying from choking with secretions is not nice . Hyoscine is one such drug . So the GP can write a range of heroin [ diamorphine ] so that the District nurse can have the discretion to vary it if no doctor available . say a weekend or at night . they are hugely experienced at helping folks have a dignified death at home or hospice staff if in a hospice .

Sometimes Relatives will ask the DN to give a lethal dose but thats currently not allowed and would put them and the GP in a difficult position .

so sorry derek your brother did not have the drugs . Its a very difficult situation with covid stretching resources . Normally if a persion is on the radar they will have a `rescue pack ` issued with a range of drugs that might be used ..say diamorphine , hyoscine for secretions , cyclizine for sickness etc etc. this is because often folks get ill in the night and need drugs at short notice or chemist does not have them in stock . often these rescue packs are binned after death but better to waste than not have them
 
hifinutt said:
Ok , yes my uncle who was an incredible guy , at one time very senior in NHS pensions got pulmonary fibrosis . HORRENDOUS disease . he could barely move without crippling breathlessness . fortunately he was well supported at his end and throughout the end stage

If you get terminal cancer , or terminal dementia or any disease that looks like death on the horizon . you are put on oral painkillers and drugs to help phlegm etc . when you reach that time when you can no longer swallow tablets the district nurse in conjunction with GP can set up a syringe driver . this can have up to 3 drugs in it. there are a number of drugs for chest secretions as dying from choking with secretions is not nice . Hyoscine is one such drug . So the GP can write a range of heroin [ diamorphine ] so that the District nurse can have the discretion to vary it if no doctor available . say a weekend or at night . they are hugely experienced at helping folks have a dignified death at home or hospice staff if in a hospice .

Sometimes Relatives will ask the DN to give a lethal dose but thats currently not allowed and would put them and the GP in a difficult position .

so sorry derek your brother did not have the drugs . Its a very difficult situation with covid stretching resources . Normally if a persion is on the radar they will have a `rescue pack ` issued with a range of drugs that might be used ..say diamorphine , hyoscine for secretions , cyclizine for sickness etc etc. this is because often folks get ill in the night and need drugs at short notice or chemist does not have them in stock . often these rescue packs are binned after death but better to waste than not have them
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I will just have to see how it works for me - I have met the District Nurse after I raised the subject with the Specialist Nurse at my last visit to the hospital.
Sadly when it occurs I will not be able to report back to you all.
 
Derek Wright said:
I will just have to see how it works for me - I have met the District Nurse after I raised the subject with the Specialist Nurse at my last visit to the hospital.
Sadly when it occurs I will not be able to report back to you all.
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Derek, one way is to ‘register’ your wishes with your health care professionals and discuss the what-ifs in advance, though that can be up-ended by an emergency admission to a busy hospital. My view is that I’d want relief from pain and fear even if that hastened my death but alas the old days of keep doubling the dose of opioids to achieve the desired effect appear to be gone since Shipman. Nevertheless there are very good palliative care services out there.
 
hifinutt said:
No it's the concern of thousands of palliative consultants who belong to this organisation . I spoke to one recently

They want more money and resources to give folks dignity at the end .

The problem is mum and dad will possibly consent to euthanasia out of a desire to save being a burden . That is a major concern and some valid concerns in the apm paper
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But they will have to have been diagnosed with an illness terminal within 6 months, confirmed by 2 independent doctors, and have to administer the fatal medication themselves - this is not euthanasia - it is essentially suicide but those facilitating it will not be subject to criminal proceedings.
 
Derek Wright said:
There is a chink of light in this process. If one suffers from a Pulmonary Fibrossis the District Nurse in conjunction with the patients Doctor can be issued with a drug that will ease the patient into permanent sleep and death. The doctor district nurse will inject the drug when the patient's discomfort becomes unacceptable. However the patent has to be in a pretty poor state to get the injection - drowning in the phlegm in their lungs.
So far I have not been prescribed the drugs. My brother did not have the drugs and he had a very disturbing death however it was not too long but no doubt very disturbing.

So there is some progress.
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In the UK what you describe is illegal.
 
Joe Hutch said:
The problem with assisted dying is that it’s all tangled up with religion, so an intelligent discussion about its rights and wrongs is impossible.
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The Bill as drafted, rightly, makes no mention of religion. It is about the legality of assisted suicide.
 
TheDecameron said:
Derek, one way is to ‘register’ your wishes with your health care professionals and discuss the what-ifs in advance, though that can be up-ended by an emergency admission to a busy hospital. My view is that I’d want relief from pain and fear even if that hastened my death but alas the old days of keep doubling the dose of opioids to achieve the desired effect appear to be gone since Shipman. Nevertheless there are very good palliative care services out there.
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Not trying to cure pneumonia is the gentlest way for may patients. Not actually killing them by an overdose, but not painfully extending life.
 
Cav said:
The Bill as drafted, rightly, makes no mention of religion. It is about the legality of assisted suicide.
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Well, yes, but debates and votes in Parliament will be influenced by MPs' and peers' religious beliefs.
 
in the news again . this issue raises its head again

Labour Leader Sir Keir Starmer has said there are "grounds for changing the law" on assisted dying.
Sir Keir said MPs should be given a chance to vote with their conscience on the matter.
A bill to legalise assisted dying in the UK was defeated in 2015, but was backed by Sir Keir and several Tory cabinet members.
The issue is under discussion after Esther Rantzen announced she had joined the Dignitas assisted dying clinic.
The 83-year-old broadcaster told the BBC she is currently undergoing a "miracle" treatment for stage four lung cancer.
If it does not work, "I might buzz off to Zurich", where assisted dying is legal, she told Radio 4's The Today Podcast.
 
This is a tough one with so many variables to take into account.

I will give one personal example of where this system could break down.

My sister's friend's mom was given a couple of weeks to live by her doctor at the hospital, this was around 10 years ago, after a cancer diagnosis a few months earlier. She had come to terms, if one can come to terms. Her daughter requested a second opinion, which she was intitled to & the doctor offered a different route to medication, she is still alive today.

We have to be very careful with this.
 

So. Assisted Suicide. Good or Bad idea?​


Good idea, I live with secondary progressive multiple sclerosis and have no intention of allowing the progression of the disease to get to the stage that I rely on others to wipe my arse and require help to dress and perform basic daily needs. My mum, brother and closest friend have been informed of my intentions and method involved and are supportive, given my previous existence as a very independent MTB guide/coach that barely spent any time sat on my arse the thought of relying on others for my existence is a complete non starter.
 
I'm really sorry to hear that @Somafunk. I'm strongly in favour of a legal right to end ones life, with appropriate safeguards - I hope the UK gets a good law, with safeguards, but not to the extent that it effectively prohibits assisted suicide.
For anyone who would like to listen to a personal account of the process I recommend this episode of the excellent US radio show "This American Life" https://www.thisamericanlife.org/779/ends-of-the-earth
 
It needs some very strong checks & balances, I’m probably marginally against it but the personal example above is very hard to argue with.

My worry is that the person making the decision must have full capacity to do so. Families can be complicated & legal challenges could be brutal & counter productive.
 
Woodface said:
It needs some very strong checks & balances, I’m probably marginally against it but the personal example above is very hard to argue with.

My worry is that the person making the decision must have full capacity to do so. Families can be complicated & legal challenges could be brutal & counter productive.
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This is where it gets complicated, plus decisions made by individual doctors on the prognosis of individual cases, it's a minefield. Plus the current state of the NHS service where individual cases are reviewed under extreme pressure. Who is going to keep a track on this. The elderly were sent back to care homes during the pandemic, under NHS guidance, it had tragic consequences.

We already have end of life care, both my parents at the end of their lives but were given medication to prevent suffering. Neither of them suffered & drifted away in their sleep, so why do we need it.
 
@sean99 , Cheers, it’s ok, sorta dealt with it by now, 5 years ago when I was diagnosed I admit to being in a very-very different state of mind as I initially complained of symptoms way back in 1997 (see below) and when I received my diagnosis in 2018 I drove to Glasgow to confront a certain consultant who hadn’t listened and tried to fob me off to a psychiatrist as he thought it was in my head. Thankfully security was called before I did too much damage.

I broke my spine very badly in a car accident aged 19 in 1991, I shattered T4, T6 and T9 with partial severance of cord and multiple other ribs, collarbones, collapsed lung etc, took 3 operations and 6 months of rehab in spinal unit before I walked out only to break it again in a mtb downhill race 18 months later which led me to attend yearly checkups with a spinal team, when I originally claimed of issues back in 97 they blamed the issues on the severe damage I did to spine and spinal cord, every year I attended the spinal team I would complain of issues but mri scans of spine and cord in the damaged area only showed the previous injuries and the opinion of the spinal team was that I had to expect issues as my body aged due to the severe damage I experienced.

Eventually I threw a strop in 2018 and demanded a 2nd opinion and received a full body/brain scan which showed multiple lesions in my brain and upper cervical spinal cord, it looked like someone has taken a magic marker and coloured in thumb sized dead areas of my brain and upper cord, what started out as fully treatable relapsing remitting ms back in 97 had progressed through all stages to secondary progressive ms due to lack of treatment for 20 years so I naturally went batshit angry for a while.

Fine now though, still get pissed off when attempting to move around house and it’s ****ing annoying having to rely on mum to get shopping, clean my fire out, get coal in and that sort of stuff but hey-ho……. I can still wipe my own arse and roll a joint if I take my time so it’s not all bad, I’ll be around for a while longer :)
 
Ragaman said:
We already have end of life care, both my parents at the end of their lives but were given medication to prevent suffering. Neither of them suffered & drifted away in their sleep, so why do we need it.
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There was an example in an article I read a few years ago. It was about an ex-paralympian lady living in Belgium iirc who had a degenerative condition that caused episodes of pain so extreme that she was unable to move or do anything. As time progressed they were only going to get worse and more frequent and would leave her unable to do anything for herself. Assisted suicide was available to her which meant that she could decide when she needed to go, and if it had not been available then she said she would have already committed suicide while she was still physically able to do so. So her take was that if assisted suicide was not available to her, she'd already be dead. Or rather it effectively extended her life.
 
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