Need fast speakers

[TheDecameron]

I had B&W two way stand mounts bought second hand in the 90s. Tweeter was on top of cabinet and they had an overload protection led on the front, bextrene cones I think. They really did sound subjectively “slow”, thick and very undynamic. I took a punt on from Lintone in Gateshead without hearing them because the price seemed good but I was taken aback by how bad they sounded. Spendor SP1s were far better and I wouldn’t call them particularly fleet-footed.

I revisited Harbeths a few years ago, SHL5s and couldn’t get on with them. Even in free space with good amps they sounded tubby. Conversely I found the HL-K6s magical as well as the SHL5+ on the end of NAIM amps- utterly different,

 

[ryder]

This does not accord with my experience of running a pair of 12" NS-1000M in my 4m x 5.8m room. They sound just as good as my pair of little E-IXs with 5.25" mid-woofers. The main advantage of the Yamahas is they can go much louder than my little Ergos.

4.0m x 5.8m can be considered as big. Small is 3.0m x 4.0m or 3.2m x 4.2m thereabouts.

 

[ToTo Man]

This does not accord with my experience of running a pair of 12" NS-1000M in my 4m x 5.8m room. They sound just as good as my pair of little E-IXs with 5.25" mid-woofers. The main advantage of the Yamahas is they can go much louder than my little Ergos.

4.0m x 5.8m can be considered as big. Small is 3.0m x 4.0m or 3.2m x 4.2m thereabouts.

IMO it's not the size of woofer that "overloads" the room but how it's been implemented in the enclosure w.r.t. tuning and baffle-step correction. Put an IMF transmission line speaker with an 8" KEF B200 or KEF racetrack B139 woofer close to the boundaries in a small room and you'll understand my point!

I haven't heard the NS-1000 but, being a half-space design, I suspect it behaves similarly to other I.B. speakers that roll-off slowly but early in the bass. Goodmans Magnum SL have 12" woofers and these speakers would never overload a small room, I expect the larger Magister model with 15" woofers would be fine too.

I had no issues with 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds in sealed 75L Lancaster enclosures in my 4.2m x 3.8m room, if anything they were a little light on bass. The same drivers in vented Lockwood Major enclosures was a different story, these produced around 10dB more bass when used in the same position and sounded very boomy and ponderous in my room unless I used EQ to reduce the bass. I initially mistook this boom for slowness but after using Dirac room correction the Majors sounded almost as fast as my Lancasters but with superior bass extension. I cannot say with certainty whether this was simply the result of getting rid of the bass peaks or the improved impulse response from the Dirac room correction, but I suspect it was a combination of both given the difference in image placement when Dirac was engaged.

What I did find though with the 15" Tannoys, even after room correction, was that the presentation was rather "PA-like" at higher SPLs and lacking in space/air. I think they'd have been easier to listen to if I could have put more distance between them and my listening seat, which is difficult to do in a small room without getting too close to the back wall and ending up with a lumpier bass response.

 

[oldius]

I have owned a lot of speakers, but I think the transient response of my NS1000 to be beyond that of all others I have owned.

 

[John Phillips]

I don't know for sure what others mean when they experience "fast" and "slow" from a 'speaker but in my take on the subject it's primarily about bass tuning. A sealed enclosure is often put forward as the solution but IMHO a properly tuned bass reflex can be better in the right circumstances.

One test I use is to listen to how a 'speaker handles the bottom end of a piano. A "slow" 'speaker sounds inconsistent to me in the attack and decay of the notes. The word in my mind is "rubbery". A fast 'speaker is consistent, in the same way a well-played, good piano sounds consistent in real life.

From some listening experience, my probably over-simplified candidate recipe is:

• for anything less than about an 8" bass driver, a sealed box with a slow bass roll-off that you can augment with some room gain
• an exception to the above is PMC's Advanced Transmission Line bass tuning which sounds fast enough to me on their smaller drivers (I don't know if other TL-type 'speakers work similarly)
• for bass drivers above about 8", a slow bass roll-off sealed enclosure is still good if you can employ some room gain, but a port can be advantageous for getting good volume with low distortion if properly tuned as per the following ...
• port resonance should be tuned to maybe 30 Hz or below so that most music content lies above resonance
• port tuning should be low-Q (broad band audio output from the port with slow overall bass roll-off) to prioritize power handling over bass extension (and use some room gain as per a sealed box)

I don't have enough listening experience to be sure of the above, but it's a recipe consistent with my listening experience which I would start with to short-list candidates to audition.

 

[Rockmeister]

Martin Logan Electromotion ESL.
Nothing comes close, esp anything in a box.

 

[Tony L]

What I did find though with the 15" Tannoys, even after room correction, was that the presentation was rather "PA-like" at higher SPLs and lacking in space/air.

FWIW Tannoys wouldn’t be my choice for high volume even though their studio heritage suggests otherwise. I like them because they have such effortless scale and heft at low to moderate levels. I’m not left with that desire to crank them up that so many smaller speakers seem to need to fill a room. I doubt I’ve ever taken mine above around 80db median level (which would equate to mid 90s peaks on a good jazz recording or whatever). Basically less than a Watt!

 

[w00fer]

I have owned a lot of speakers, but I think the transient response of my NS1000 to be beyond that of all others I have owned.

Is that largely down to beryllium tweeters (am I remembering correctly?), or size of the woofer, or mass vs. magnet size of woofer, or inertness/rigidity of the cabinets, or some combination of those?
I guess in general for 'speed' you need fast driver response and lack of vibration of anything other than the drivers in response to the signal? So strong magnets and light drivers?

 

[Mike Reed]

an exception to the above is PMC's Advanced Transmission Line bass tuning which sounds fast enough to me on their smaller drivers (

As I'm finding with my 20.26. If the bass is there in the signal, it seems to recreate it. I am finding this difficult to come to terms with (after big ESLs) but have to admit that it's impressive for a small box and driver. I believe (and can hear) that PMC's ATL format is a vast improvement on (IMF?) transmission line I heard in the somewhat distant past.

 

[oldius]

Is that largely down to beryllium tweeters (am I remembering correctly?), or size of the woofer, or mass vs. magnet size of woofer, or inertness/rigidity of the cabinets, or some combination of those?
I guess in general for 'speed' you need fast driver response and lack of vibration of anything other than the drivers in response to the signal? So strong magnets and light drivers?

The first thing to probably say is that each speaker is 41kg and a sealed box.
Next we have the first ever Beryllium tweeter AND midrange. I think the latter is still a first because of the expense and danger of working with the material.
So, I think it is a combination, but the speaker was designed to be highly responsive. Given the right amplification, I am still astounded by what they do.

 

[Tel]

If you want fast speakers then nothing comes close to compression drivers (horns) In my view it is as important how fast they stop as how fast they start.

I have had ESL (ML and Quad) and high efficiency box speakers and nothing comes close.
I wouldn’t go back

All the very best systems I have ever heard have been horns.
Domestically you may need to look at slightly hybrid options as horn bass comes with a large footprint

 

[Ayya Khema]

That's subjective. If speakers with 8" woofers are toys, I presume 10" or larger only qualify for big boys.

Speakers with 10" or 12" woofers are mostly huge and can't produce good results in small to medium sized rooms of say 3.0m to 5.0m thereabouts even though the room may be dedicated for the hifi and nothing else. In a domestic listening environment in the lounge or living room where placement of speakers is limited, small to medium sized speakers with 5" to 7" drivers will often produce better results than huge speakers with larger drivers. When you turn up the volume, the sound will be a mess with large speakers in smaller rooms.

Although good bass is important, it's not everything. People can still enjoy the music without deep bass, speakers with 8" woofers or smaller. It's better to have less bass than too much bass with larger speakers with 10" drivers which will mess up everything including the midrange and treble.

Lots and lots of misunderstandings of room acoustic is what lead you to believe what you said. Along decades of marketing ploy to convince the users that small speakers are great.

Big speakers work in good small rooms
Big and Small speakers dont work in bad rooms. The small speakers simply make a bad room less apparent, while adding all its own limitations. This is not hifi, its whatever you want to call it.

10” woofers cannot work under 3m. What?!?

I had shl5plus and graham ls5/9.

If you enjoy them, fine. I also enjoy small wideband in the kitchen but i had to admit to myself how pathetic they sound next to proper 15” woofers. Pathetic is not a exaggeration. I dont agree its subjective either.

8” woofers are toys. Toys are fun, for sure!

 

[Mullardman]

I've used a BBC derived speaker, based loosely in the LS3-5A for over 25 years. The major reason it has never been dislodged from my system is that I've not found a speaker as capable as following stuff such as Ashknazy playing lightning quick Mozart.
No muddle, no blurring, no tripping up.
Achieving that..without becoming bright, thin, or imposing a 'signature' on the music takes some doing. Plenty fast enough for me.

 

[TheDecameron]

Martin Logan Electromotion ESL.
Nothing comes close, esp anything in a box.

I bought a pair to see if I liked /could house them and indeed they would trounce any two way stand mount near their price in many important respects. Now thinking about going up the range. Wish I had done this years ago but even now with compromised hearing, the resolution is fantastic.

 

[Chris81]

Lots and lots of misunderstandings of room acoustic is what lead you to believe what you said. Along decades of marketing ploy to convince the users that small speakers are great.

Big speakers work in good small rooms
Big and Small speakers dont work in bad rooms. The small speakers simply make a bad room less apparent, while adding all its own limitations. This is not hifi, its whatever you want to call it.

It seems to be that you have a lot of misunderstand and real life experience how a big speaker works in a small room. There is also a reason why professionals use smaller speakers in small recording studios, even if they are treated properly. You also don't mention the effort which is necessary, especially bass absorption to allow a big speaker to work well in a small room. Most of them won't work in living rooms. There were some big older speakers that worked well in smaller rooms but only because the don't play as deep as the newer ones. If the play @0dB @ 50Hz and have a big cabinet and or driver they will cause excessive boom. Small rooms are shitty in general but many people don't have big rooms.

I also like to see such a nimble, upper bass and lower midrange and clean midrange as from a LS3/5a another small monitor from a big speaker listening to normal loudness levels.

 

[ryder]

Lots and lots of misunderstandings of room acoustic is what lead you to believe what you said. Along decades of marketing ploy to convince the users that small speakers are great.

Big speakers work in good small rooms
Big and Small speakers dont work in bad rooms. The small speakers simply make a bad room less apparent, while adding all its own limitations. This is not hifi, its whatever you want to call it.

10” woofers cannot work under 3m. What?!?

I had shl5plus and graham ls5/9.

If you enjoy them, fine. I also enjoy small wideband in the kitchen but i had to admit to myself how pathetic they sound next to proper 15” woofers. Pathetic is not a exaggeration. I dont agree its subjective either.

8” woofers are toys. Toys are fun, for sure!

As I said before, not everyone will have the hifi in a dedicated room with room treatments as most will be in the lounge or living room with other room furnishing. One can make a pair of huge speakers with manly 12" or 15" woofers work in a small room but it will take a lot of effort. Not everyone is willing or has the capacity to do it.

Big manly speakers may sound great but you plonk them in a small domestic listening environment, box speakers such as Harbeth 40.2, Graham, Dynaudio etc., you get poor sound. The sound quality may be decent if you listen at low volumes but turn the volume up and the deep bass will ruin everything and cause the sound to be in a mess.

You may not agree that it's a subjective topic but I surely don't agree with your assessment. When speakers with a 5" to 7" woofer sound significantly better than one with 12" or 15", it doesn't matter if the smaller speaker is a toy in accordance with your definition. Perhaps you listen differently or your expectations are different from others.

Your opinion that large speakers with 12" or 15" woofers are better or more enjoyable than small speakers with 8" or smaller woofers, it's just your opinion and not a fact.

 

[Ayya Khema]

Your opinion that large speakers with 12" or 15" woofers are better or more enjoyable than small speakers with 8" or smaller woofers, it's just your opinion and not a fact.

just trying to help.

if your 100% happy, thats all that matters

personally, i had a nagging feeling that i wanted the tannoy impact and ease and detail in the bass, with the harbeth mid and good treble (i dont 100% agree with the treble presentation of the shl5plus).

I find my big speakers integrate better in the same room then my P3esr, Graham ls59 or shl5plus ever did.

 

[Ayya Khema]

It seems to be that you have a lot of misunderstand and real life experience how a big speaker works in a small room. There is also a reason why professionals use smaller speakers in small recording studios, even if they are treated properly. You also don't mention the effort which is necessary, especially bass absorption to allow a big speaker to work well in a small room. Most of them won't work in living rooms. There were some big older speakers that worked well in smaller rooms but only because the don't play as deep as the newer ones. If the play @0dB @ 50Hz and have a big cabinet and or driver they will cause excessive boom. Small rooms are shitty in general but many people don't have big rooms.

I also like to see such a nimble, upper bass and lower midrange and clean midrange as from a LS3/5a another small monitor from a big speaker listening to normal loudness levels.

https://gearspace.com/board/studio-...s-monitor-size-really-matter.html#post7900877

 

[Cereal Killer]

Look at Proac or Kudos - both are very agile performers and fit those genres perfectly.

 

[Chris81]

https://gearspace.com/board/studio-...s-monitor-size-really-matter.html#post7900877

You posted this before here #57 and I reply with the same answer from my reply #60

What you totally miss is that these guys are talking about studio monitors in studio environment = acoustic treated rooms including bass absorption!
With the SHL5 plus in my 14sqm room I have had very high bass mode peaks up to 15db, withe the C7 X.D. to a lesser degree and with the Graham Chartwell LS3/5a even less. Because of the near field listening position I didn't have to turn the volume up that far compared to a bigger speaker in a bigger room with a bigger listening distance.

I have tested even bigger speakers with a 10" midbass driver in that room and not only the room mode peaks were higher, the reverberation time was ridicules high.

Therefore your "it is a myth" isn't true.

BTW: Please show me the part where it is stated (and why) bigger speakers work better in smaller rooms compared to smaller speakers.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my last question!