Active speakers - Kii Audio, Dutch & Dutch...

[Roger Adams]

Just personally speaking, I would.

I use actives (ATC's in my case) primarily because they save an awful lot of space (so they are wife friendly) and in real terms, they represent decent value - on the used market where they can readily be procured.

I have heard many a passive set up that I would love to own were I to have more space and more money - some of which, no doubt, others on here are lucky enough to enjoy. Active speakers are a very neat solution to an age old problem.

 

[Mr Underhill]

I have recently dramatically reduced the number of boxes of my system.
Streamer, pre, pre power supply and DAC have been replaced by a pre/DAC with volume control and I am very satisfied about the sound.
Conventional power amp and speakers remain.
I am now starting to look at active speakers with growing curiosity and interest. I must say, I know very little about traditional active speakers such as ATC and others (but it's my guessing that basically it's a normal speaker with a power amp in the same cabinet), and absolutely nothing about modern technology developments such as Kii Audio and Dutch & Dutch. Don't even know if there are other producers in this segment of the market.

I'd like to know what advantages do these speakers have, how to connect them (to my RME adi-2 DAC, for example), and if their setup is particularly complicated. I mean, is it just positioning, or is there any electronic setup/tweaking that requires special skills?

Any comment/experience will be appreciated

Thanks

Hi Ste,

I had an evening listening to the Kii & D&D last year using a Aurelic G2 streamer with two friends. Both active speakers were very good, but on the evening the three of us had a decided preference for the D&D. None of us were tempted to change our current systems.

The overriding thought i had was that they were superb value for money.

A friend who professionally masters films bought round pair of commercial active speakers a few months ago. These were far cheaper. While not as good as the Kii & D&D they were, again, excellent VFM.

I don't think there is any magic bullet here and I would encourage you to do the legwork before you commit. Depending where you are on your hifi journey these speakers may be an excellent choice, if you already have some good components another direction may be better.

Look forward to your thoughts when you have had a listen.

M

 

[JohnPM]

In this circuit the signal passes through 3 active amplification devices.
For reference, in a passive crossover, the signal passes through 0 active amplification devices.

If only "passive" meant "good", but it doesn't. In passive crossovers:

• The components dissipate (waste) significant amounts of the power delivered from the amplifier
• The need to handle high powers makes it difficult to produce components with well controlled tolerances, so the crossover response varies from its design target and from speaker to speaker
• The power dissipated in the crossover components varies their characteristics - for example, the series resistance of copper inductors increases by approximately 0.4% for every degree C rise in their temperature, degrading their quality factor correspondingly. The common term for the result of variation of characteristics with signal level is distortion.
• The crossover must be designed for a specific load impedance from the driver. The driver's impedance varies with frequency and signal level, meaning the passive crossover meets its design response approximately none of the time
• The crossover typically presents a variable load to the amplifier, undermining its stability and varying the frequency response. Passive impedance compensation to try and ameliorate that requires even more components with even more of the degradations listed above.

Analog active crossovers deal with most of the above issues, though the ultimate solution from a performance point of view is to move the crossover into the digital domain. Passive crossovers trail a distant third in the ranking.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Thank-you for not answering my question.

Thank-you for making an ad hominem attack on me instead of answering my question.

You said that active speakers have NO disadvantages (apart from cost).

This is a load of codswallop!

Because it assumes that the active crossovers have no adverse affect whatsoever on the sound quality.
That's a huge assumption to make.

This "active speakers are better and have no downsides" rhetoric has been going on for years on hi-fi forums.
It's cobblers!

There's no balance to your rabidly pro active speaker rhetoric.
Anyone claiming that active crossovers - in general - as actually used in actual real world, commercially available active speakers have NO downsides is expressing a totally blinkered view on this topic.

I asked if you could provide a circuit diagram, because YOU made the totally unbalanced claim that active speakers have NO downsides (apart from cost).

Surely for you to make such a claim, you'd have to be familiar with a range of actual active crossover circuits and you'd have to be confident that they are 100% sonically transparent.

Otherwise your claim was made on the basis of ignorance and guesswork!

Your complete absence of knowledge means that, like most "audiophools" you are too ignorant to be worth any further engagement with.

 

[gingermrkettle]

In this circuit the signal passes through 3 active amplification devices.
For reference, in a passive crossover, the signal passes through 0 active amplification devices.

For someone with a passive pre-amp, how many active amplification devices does the signal pass through in a minimalist solid state class AB power amp or in a SET amplifier?

And how typical is this circuit when it comes to active speaker crossovers?
How does it compare, for example to the active crossover in AVI ADM 10's or in ATC SCM50's?

Not got as much personal experience with lots of active setups, but the LR circuit is very widely used.

As sort of alluded to, it depends how you define active elements. The op amp half or the individual compinents within it (same point for a gainclone setup, is an LM3886 one active element or 15ish)?

And the main point is of course whether an active component or 15 is worse than a passive crossover component or the effect of cone break up? Having ran a pair of Tannoy 607s active and then put them back for use in a different system (using the same amp boards for both), the answer was very clear.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

If I understand it right, D&Ds have many adjustable features. Are these features meant to optimize the sound to the room? Is this something that requires technicians or dealer’s work, or any special instruments? I’d like to know how “friendly” they are, in setup terms.

They provide quite a few adjustment options to allow you to tune them to better suit your room and also your taste. Probably the most important adjustment is to let each speaker know how far away it is from the front wall and the nearest side wall. Each speaker has a settings page which allows you to specify these distances in 10cm bands. The only tools required for this are a tape measure and a web browser.

Each speaker also has built-in parametric EQ filters. This is most often used to smooth out the in room response at the bottom end, where the modal resonances of the room invariably lead to large peaks and dips at certain frequencies. Generating the parametric EQ filter values requires either an exceptionally good ear or a measurement microphone and software like Room EQ Wizard. The microphone is not expensive and the software is free, but it does come with a bit of a learning curve. I do this for my 8c customers or I show them how to do it for themselves, as they prefer. Hopefully your dealer provides the same service.

You can apply EQ to make the speakers produce a flat in room response or to fit your own custom tone curve. I normally encourage customers to start off with a -1dB/octave gently sloping curve as in theory at least this is what a perfect loudspeaker should produce when placed into a real room. It is also what our brains are used to hearing from real instruments and voices. You can use more elaborate curves like the Harman subjective listener curves, the Bruel and Kjaer curve or pretty much anything else you could reasonably want. Once you have a reliable set of measurements, it is easy to generate alternative filters to implement different curves.

There are also some shelving controls which are great for making quick and easily reversible adjustments to the sub bass, bass and treble.

 

[sunbeamgls]

What's more telling, is that very few (home listeners) seem to ever go back to separates, once they have made an excursion into half decent actives, and more so In the digital domain.

There is something about them. Dunfiddlin etc.

Not all active speakers have integrated crossovers and amps - in fact when comparing equivalent integrated vs external electronics versions of Linn speakers, the externally driven ones do sound better. But I get the point you're making about few people going from active back to passive (it does happen), which I think is the point you were making - which isn't directly related to integrated vs separates active solutions.

 

[indus]

They provide quite a few adjustment options to allow you to tune them to better suit your room and also your taste. Probably the most important adjustment is to let each speaker know how far away it is from the front wall and the nearest side wall. Each speaker has a settings page which allows you to specify these distances in 10cm bands. The only tools required for this are a tape measure and a web browser.

Each speaker also has built-in parametric EQ filters. This is most often used to smooth out the in room response at the bottom end, where the modal resonances of the room invariably lead to large peaks and dips at certain frequencies. Generating the parametric EQ filter values requires either an exceptionally good ear or a measurement microphone and software like Room EQ Wizard. The microphone is not expensive and the software is free, but it does come with a bit of a learning curve. I do this for my 8c customers or I show them how to do it for themselves, as they prefer. Hopefully your dealer provides the same service.

You can apply EQ to make the speakers produce a flat in room response or to fit your own custom tone curve. I normally encourage customers to start off with a -1dB/octave gently sloping curve as in theory at least this is what a perfect loudspeaker should produce when placed into a real room. It is also what our brains are used to hearing from real instruments and voices. You can use more elaborate curves like the Harman subjective listener curves, the Bruel and Kjaer curve or pretty much anything else you could reasonably want. Once you have a reliable set of measurements, it is easy to generate alternative filters to implement different curves.

There are also some shelving controls which are great for making quick and easily reversible adjustments to the sub bass, bass and treble.

Could you please share one of this curves with us? I'd be interested to take a look.
Thanks

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Could you please share one of this curves with us? I'd be interested to take a look.
Thanks

Sure. I'd be happy to. These are the three curves referenced in my previous post.

1dB/octave linear

Bruel and Kjaer

Harman all listeners

 

[Strictly Stereo]

...And just to illustrate the point, in this example I am using three filters to map the measured response to the target response and deal with some low end boominess caused by modal resonances.

 

[DARINO]

I would track down your local ATC dealer and audition ATC SCM40A just to get a taste of what active can do. They offer great value for money and build quality. If you can accomodate it the 50A and 100A are pretty amazing. 40A are effectively a high quality 3 way floor stander with 6 power amp channels and an active crossover thrown in. They significantly outperform the passive version with the remaining money spent on a power amp. There is a reason so many people use them in the pro business. Not that many manufacturers make every drive unit and build the whole active electronics themselves. When people buy them they usually stick with them.

 

[AndyU]

I would track down your local ATC dealer and audition ATC SCM40A just to get a taste of what active can do. They offer great value for money and build quality. If you can accomodate it the 50A and 100A are pretty amazing. 40A are effectively a high quality 3 way floor stander with 6 power amp channels and an active crossover thrown in. They significantly outperform the passive version with the remaining money spent on a power amp. There is a reason so many people use them in the pro business. Not that many manufacturers make every drive unit and build the whole active electronics themselves. When people buy them they usually stick with them.

.. and there’s nothing stopping you using DSP with them if you fancy. You have a wide choice of DSP strategies, from Dirac, REW, Roon, JRiver etc.

 

[DARINO]

All of this technical stuff is interesting from an Engineering perspective but does it play music. I once tried a Lyngdorf room correcting pre-amp and it really cleaned up the bass response by just removing a couple of room modes. Initially it was impressive but after only a little while it just sounded sterile and uninvolving. I have listened to SCM40A and 50A and would happily live with them in my system. 100 would be even better.

 

[Roger Adams]

One question for some would be, would you prefer the Kii GXT reference or an almost new pair of Tannoy Westminsters with a stereo power amplifier on the rack. It's not as clear cut as some make out IMHO - especially if you listen to Blue Note, Columbia and others as well as Led Zep or even modern dance music.

 

[DARINO]

And also, make sure you can hear the speakers at home in your own room and system.

 

[AndyU]

One question for some would be, would you prefer the Kii GXT reference or an almost new pair of Tannoy Westminsters with a stereo power amplifier on the rack. It's not as clear cut as some make out IMHO - especially if you listen to Blue Note, Columbia and others as well as Led Zep or even modern dance music.

That’s the conundrum of the whole hifi thing; we have little idea what expectations the guys who made the music had about how it should be played back. I bet if Rudy van Gelder was around today he would’ve mixed differently.

 

[Purité Audio]

.. and there’s nothing stopping you using DSP with them if you fancy. You have a wide choice of DSP strategies, from Dirac, REW, Roon, JRiver etc.

The problem is you can only really EQ speakers that have constant directivity , ie the same FR on axis as off axis.
If the off axis ragged and you ‘correct’ that you alter the previously smooth on-axis behaviour.
Keith

 

[Roger Adams]

Andy, I have to admit when it comes to Bill Evans, Coltrane or early Miles, the bigger the main drive unit the more realistic the replay. I've yet to hear anything that doesn't cross over from a big drive unit in the midrange to really make me think that a sax or a live drum kit is in my living room and that includes my ATC's, It's something speakers like the Kii cannot seemingly manage. An ease. Realistic headroom. As you say, Rudy's main monitors would have mimicked that design. I would have a pair tomorrow if I had the money. Realism.

 

[AndyU]

Andy, I have to admit when it comes to Bill Evans, Coltrane or early Miles, the bigger the main drive unit the more realistic the replay. I've yet to hear anything that doesn't cross over from a big drive unit in the midrange to really make me think that a sax or a live drum kit is in my living room and that includes my ATC's, It's something speakers like the Kii cannot seemingly manage. An ease. Realistic headroom. As you say, Rudy's main monitors would have mimicked that design. I would have a pair tomorrow if I had the money. Realism.

It’s strange, when you go to a classical recital you don’t come out saying that you wished you’d heard it in a field or an anechoic chamber; the acoustic is part of the instrument, a part of the music. Maybe that’s the way to look at speakers - that they are an acoustic, so a big pair of Tannoys or JBLs are an acoustic just like the Village Vanguard or La Scala Milan. And consequently they are the acoustic into which the producer expected his music to be played. Btw, if you love that period in Jazz there is an absolutely superb documentary about Miles just released on Netflix. It’s called Miles Davis Birth of the Cool. Two hours. Worth a months sub on its own. Netflix also have some other good music documentaries on the likes of John Coltrane. When you are locked down at home in two weeks as I am right now you might find them all worth watching.

 

[camverton]

The problem is you can only really EQ speakers that have constant directivity , ie the same FR on axis as off axis.
If the off axis ragged and you ‘correct’ that you alter the previously smooth on-axis behaviour.
Keith

You make a very good case for buying MBL speakers, surprising given that you don’t sell them!