Van attack at Finsbury park mosque.

[marvin1882]

You mention Neocons and right away the same people are in talking about tinfoil hats etc..

As Gilad Atzmon said: 'Jewish power is the ability to shut down discussion of Jewish power'

..

Gilad Atzmon speaks a lot of sense. A Jewish intellectual, critical of Zionism, who is well worth listening to. A world class Jazz musician too! His above quote is spot on.

 

[Bob McC]

I agree with much of what you have typed there Tony but I think it would be wrong to ban the likes of mikeandvan and the small minority like him for holding the views which they do. To my mind, it is much better to debate with these people and try and win them round with reasoned argument. Thankfully, it is not as though this site is overrun with this type of poster and I suspect it never will be. What you don't want is a site completely made up of those who all share the same political outlook and viewpoint. You just end up with a dull echo chamber. Although I disagree with him, in many ways I respect him for coming on here and expressing his thoughts and opinions with honesty. Intelligent, reasoned debate should negate the need for banning and deletion of posts/threads in my opinion.

This isn't a debating chamber, it's Tony's business.
He can and should boot out anyone that risks damaging that business.

 

[hifinutt]

what I can`t understand is that this chap helped out his Muslim neighbours with diy and his family never heard any racist stuff . its very very scary . on facebook you can see some folks who really hate muslims . I hope the police track them down .

the good thing is many non muslims have been laying flowers at the Finsbury mosque in solidarity .

 

[Guest432]

His family are saying he has a history of mental problems but has never been racist.

On the face of it I'm inclined to believe them going by his behaviour.

 

[Seanm]

His neighbour said of him, "He's always been a complete c*** but this is really surprising."

 

[Lee T]

This isn't a debating chamber, it's Tony's business.
He can and should boot out anyone that risks damaging that business.

I thought Tony was in favour of unstifled views on the internet, i doubt he would wholly agree with this sentiment.
Hate is one thing, offering alternative views is another.

Mike has not shown hate as far as i'm aware on this thread, just his personal view, if some disagree, rather than throwing out more hate, they should enlighten.

 

[Seanm]

I agree with much of what you have typed there Tony but I think it would be wrong to ban the likes of mikeandvan and the small minority like him for holding the views which they do. To my mind, it is much better to debate with these people and try and win them round with reasoned argument. Thankfully, it is not as though this site is overrun with this type of poster and I suspect it never will be. What you don't want is a site completely made up of those who all share the same political outlook and viewpoint. You just end up with a dull echo chamber. Although I disagree with him, in many ways I respect him for coming on here and expressing his thoughts and opinions with honesty. Intelligent, reasoned debate should negate the need for banning and deletion of posts/threads in my opinion.

No, they're not here to debate and their positions are not seriously debatable: Mike and a few others are basically using the forum to work through personal issues and spewing a lot of hate in the process. Look at how Mike's used this thread about an attack on Muslims to talk a lot of incoherent, demented bollocks about how "we" need to take matters into our own hands wrt "Islamists."

 

[merlin]

His family are saying he has a history of mental problems but has never been racist.

On the face of it I'm inclined to believe them going by his behaviour.

All racists are mentally ill but not all of the mentally ill are racist.

I mentioned earlier that mental health would come into this somewhere along the line and people need to ask angry questions of their government in the same way that they are over Grenfell Tower.

In an opinion piece for pharmaphorum, Paul Farmer, chief executive of the mental health charity Mind says austerity has hit mental health services particularly hard.

“The reality of the world of mental health is that, in recent years, life has become significantly more difficult for many people with mental health problems.

“Austerity has taken its toll on the mental health of the nation, while cuts to NHS mental health services mean that people up and down the country are being failed when they are at their most unwell. People are telling us every day that it’s becoming harder and harder to get the help they need.”

You cannot cut funding by 20% when demand increases 50% and expect to offer the same levels of service. A ****ing four year old could work that out.

 

[Tony L]

I thought Tony was in favour of unstifled views on the internet, i doubt he would wholly agree with this sentiment.
Hate is one thing, offering alternative views is another.

I'm in favour of an open and free internet, and part of that freedom is my right to moderate my own site however I see fit!

 

[Lee T]

Ok, I'll engage with this. First off I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any gods, ghosts, afterlife or any other such thing. I am 100% a spiritual/mystical free-zone. I do however live in an area with a very high Muslim population and I recognise exactly the scapegoating and demonisation they face as I've seen it first hand. As such I keep that bullshit right off this, my site, my place of work. I am also aware that pfm has a very high Asian/Muslim userbase and I seek to cause no offence to these people, my friends.

The JW thing struck me very much as lightweight lighthearted fun. Just ways of gently taking the mick a bit if they continue to knock at your door uninvited. A whole different thing to Muslims who as part of their day to day life get spat on, have bottles and stones lobbed at them, have train-loads of unemployable knuckle-dragging EDL shit turning up to trash their business etc and are pretty much treated the way the Jewish population of Germany was way back in the early '30s when fascism was taking a foothold.

PS To put it another way if anyone here can "see that the EDL/BNP/Britain First/NF have a point" they can f*** right off. pfm really is not for them. I will waste neither my time or money promoting these views. Please believe me on this, I have a site with many, many thousands of members, I'll happily ditch hundreds to get this ideology right off here (I'd actually only have to ditch maybe three, non of which are even customers!). This is an anti-fascist/anti-racist site!

I still believe all faiths should have equal respect for those who hold them, i don't see why some should be graded on how badly you are treated for believing in it, i imagine anyone who has faith believes unconditionally & would take equal offence at being ridiculed for it.

Why do you believe someone who believes in Jehova will take less offence than a Muslim for believing in their faith, it's not about being spit at in the street, it's how online forums deal with religion & faith, it's this that causes problems in the real world.

As i said earlier, i have no problem with anyone disagreeing with faith, i do myself but i feel those who do should at least be treated equally.

 

[marvin1882]

I know what Douglas Murray is, Paul. I know what damage Neoconservatism has caused.

It is an ideology that has been vastly more destructive than Wahhabism, and IMO no advocate of it should be afforded a platform on the likes of the BBC - as Murray so often is - in order to attempt to poison the minds of the masses.

Oddly enough, now, Neoconservatives and extreme Wahhabists are working hand-in-hand as they try to destroy Syria. The two most dangerous ideologies of the day, working together.

Some argue that the extreme Neoconservatives and the extreme Wahhabists ultimately serve the same masters. Some of the more 'out there' commentators that teeter on the edges of the conspiracy world argue that a dark, cyclical game of chaos, divide & conquer is currently being played out and the globalist elite/Illuminati/Free-masonic cult (call them what you like) who are ultimately in control of this planet, are ultimately funding and encouraging both sides/extremes as part of a 'New World Order' agenda - the Wahhabi perversion of Islam (via Saudi and its funding) and the primarily Islamophobia driven, populist right wing movement which is gaining traction throughout the western world right now and is very clearly seriously funded and agenda driven. Just like the Wahhabi extremist movement appears to be, with Daesh/ISIL/ISIS apparently having access to billions of dollars of funding. A purposely 'engineered' clash of civilizations.

I acknowledge this is an extreme and somewhat bleak view to consider. But so much of what is happening and has happened since 9/11 makes little rational, logical sense and I for one no longer trust the MSM or the political leaders we are presented with, most of whom appear to be little more than shallow puppets who do not seem to have the power or inclination to effect any real change.

 

[Lee T]

I'm in favour of an open and free internet, and part of that freedom is my right to moderate my own site however I see fit!

Which is more in line with what i thought too.

 

[Lee T]

All racists are mentally ill

What a stupid, ignorant statement.

 

[gassor]

A number of assumptions and conflations being made there gassor. Not buying it.

Thems the facts.

 

[gassor]

Some argue that the extreme Neoconservatives and the extreme Wahhabists ultimately serve the same masters. Some of the more 'out there' commentators that teeter on the edges of the conspiracy world argue that a dark, cyclical game of chaos, divide & conquer is currently being played out and the globalist elite/Illuminati/Free-masonic cult (call them what you like) who are ultimately in control of this planet, are ultimately funding and encouraging both sides/extremes as part of a 'New World Order' agenda - the Wahhabi perversion of Islam (via Saudi and its funding) and the primarily Islamophobia driven, populist right wing movement which is gaining traction throughout the western world right now and is very clearly seriously funded and agenda driven. Just like the Wahhabi extremist movement appears to be, with Daesh/ISIL/ISIS apparently having access to billions of dollars of funding. A purposely 'engineered' clash of civilizations.

Good summary of max's position. He may dispute the last sentence or dislike being called one of "the more 'out there' commentators, but you are pretty well on the money as far as most of the stuff he puts on here is concerned.

 

[gassor]

What a stupid, ignorant statement.

Come on, what do you expect?

 

[Seanm]

Thems the facts.

First sentence, ok, after that...thems not facts.

And they are not spread evenly across the country. So there is a perception that British culture (whatever it is) is being eroded. This is most keenly felt by those at the lower levels of the social class ladder who most closely relate to some sort of community spirit.

 

[rally]

Mikeandvan's posts were fine until the edl/bnp POV became his own POV.

 

[maxflinn]

I acknowledge it is an extreme and somewhat bleak view to consider. But so much of what is happening and has happened since 9/11 makes little rational, logical sense and I for one no longer trust the MSM or the political leaders we are presented with, most of whom appear to be little more than shallow puppets who do not have the power to effect any real change.

Marvin, IMO what is clear - and cannot be called a conspiracy theory - is that Zionist and Gulf State (mostly Saudi) money has been used to buy politicians in the US for decades using its system of legal bribery, to fund dozens and dozens of warmongering right-wing Neocon/Saudi think-tanks, and to buy media organisations; all of which have been pumping out the same 'clash of civilisations' rhetoric (bar the Saudi think-tanks of course), and pushing for the regime wars that the Israelis and Saudis want in the Middle East.

The same money is now rife in British politics though to a far lesser degree. Similar think-tanks are springing up in the UK, the media is largely owned by Israeli-friendly billionaires like Murdoch who's a confirmed Zionist. Cameron, Blair etc, all set-confessed Zionists. Neocons, devoted to Israel and to the Neocon-led US foreign policy that has caused so much carnage. Neocons like Murray spreading his poison on the BBC every week...And of course most of the above worship the sacred Saudis, of which nothing negative is ever said...

We have seen the result of Western countries adopting Neocon values. Carnage in the Middle East, the rise of terrorist groups like ISIS, the refugee crisis, racial tensions throughout Europe, the rise of the far-right in places, Muslims being treated like the Jews of the 30s...

Just as Muslims need to understand why extreme Wahhabism is so wrong and unrepresentative of their religion - and the vast, vast majority do, so we all ought to understand the dangers and consequences of adopting the ideology of Neoconservatism, and move to weaken it, to stamp it out, ultimately.

Because if Neoconservatism is left to grow then by default, so will Wahhabist extremism, IMO. The former has been fuelling the latter.

 

[Still]

His family are saying he has a history of mental problems but has never been racist.

I would like to see those categories applied to Daily Mail demographics.