Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part III

[Jim Audiomisc]

I don't get this not believeing people about cables. If they hear a difference, they hear a difference, end of.

I don't have any problem with people reporting that they heard a 'difference'. My curiosity, etc, however is wrt the question *why* they heard it.

In particular when they advance a belief as to the 'reason'.
This is where what is said may mislead them, and others, if its isn't correct. Even when they *did* hear a difference.

Add to that the fact that a number of tests (one run by Stereophile at a show, for example) show that people tend to hear a 'difference' *even when the same thing is played though the same system twice in a row*.

There are well known *physiological* as well as psychological reasons for this to happen.

 

[BE718]

I will pass this info on to a few people, see what they think on the subject as there are only a couple here stating this, which in itself is quite a low average.

You are basically stating, every single Naim amplifier is deficient, Naim amps react quite sensitively to cabling of any kind, mains included, this is where your logic falls flat for me.

My mains are fine, I never experience mains issues, pops, clicks, etc..
I still don't see a difference with buying a regenerator, an amp should be able to cope with mains fluctuations too, a regenerator only addresses these issues, they cost hundreds too.

Pass it on to whom you like, but please be aware we are specifically talking about mains cables.

Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that Naim amps are deficient in this area? That's where your logic falls flat. The presumption that they must be perfect designs.

In fact this is a perfect example of someone falling for marketing and reputational influences instead of scientific fact. Brilliant, thans you very much for demonstrating the point.

The bit you have missed re the regen and filtering is that these are only necessary under abnormal mains conditions.

If your mains supply is fine, and I would like to know precisely how you drew that conclusion, why on earth would you need a funky mains cable? It would serve no purpose, yet you still think it improves the sound????????

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

To claim any piece of hifi equipment has to be faulty because an improved mains lead improves the sound needs to be proven to be so, it has zero to do with Carl Sagan's Baloney detection checklist, it's simply standard scientific practice.

Maybe you & a few others could prove this view, until then.....

Well, in practical terms, having spent years in the past designing and testing amplifiers: If I found that changing a mains cable altered the sound of the amp I'd want to know why. And my first ports of call would be to measure and observe the mains waveforms, do tests on the amp, and determine the basic properties of the mains cables (and connectors) involved,

However I do know more ways to design an amp so it ended up being prone to mains problems than I do ways to screw up making a mains cable that much. Beyond that, it'd depend on the specific case.

In practice, though, I haven't encountered this situation. And where I've had identifiable problems from the mains, a simple filter has fixed it.

 

[BE718]

One for BE, forgot to ask this earlier, what is it's roll of the mains cable in rendering the amp deficient.

If the cable changes the sound, which has been tested blind in my circumstances, taking lying out of the equation as mentioned a few times recently, what is the cable doing here.

I have sent a message to a well regarded company for their views on this, I have included your earlier post for them to munch on, hopefully I will hear back in a few days or sooner.

The mains cable doesn't render the amp deficient.

It is the alleged requirement for the cable to correct for the amps deficiency in coping with subtle mains condition variations.


Why are you expecting, presumably a hifi manufacturer with an obvious vested interest in defending their products and selling accessories, to tell you anything other than what you obviously want to hear?

That's just daft.

 

[BE718]

Mains regeneration....why...what's the difference here, if an non deficient amp copes with such fluctuations why pay hundreds for one, maybe because they are an accepted way of removing fluctuations, which is fine, they should not need removing according to your logic, the mains fluctuations should have zero effect on a well designed amp according to you.

normal fluctuations yep, you've got it. Totally unnecessary. Unless of course your amp is shit.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The point I'm trying (and failing) to make is that the cable sceptics use lack of results from blind tests as evidence that the difference goes away under blind conditions. From this, they conclude that the difference is down to imagination/self-delusion. This is the stick with which subjectivists are repeatedly beaten. It is also an invalid conclusion to draw.

All you can conclude from a null test is that the difference claimed was not detected under the test conditions. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and all that.

Not quite. The conclusion is that any previously heard difference was probably either for some other reason or was too minor to be reliably detected. This need not be "imagination" or "delusion" wrt having *perceived* a 'difference'. But may well be a mistake in attribution of the 'reason' for it arising.

The result isn't actually a 'null' TBH. Statistically it is a result showing no reason to accept the proposed *cause* being tested was correct or had significance.

 

[Jonboi]

Even if mains cables did effect SQ ,due to placebo or poor amplifier design that effect is tiny compared to the real and measurable benefits of understanding your room and the integration of your room and loudspeakers.
I find it surprising that serious listeners will spend a considerable amount on accessories yet will not consider tackling fundamental acoustic issues .
Keith

I agree 110% with one small caveat.

I am not surprised, given how many audiophiles swallow the marketing guff, combined with obsessive fiddling and seeming ignorance of the bigger picture in terms of what matters and what doesn't re HiFi.

Whilst all have a right to an opinion, not all opinions are equal, as ignorance of the facts, doesn't mean 'my' ignorance is as good as 'your' knowledge.

Some audiophiles really need to understand there are no 'alternative facts' re the likes of cables - only proven, scientific facts, including not just physics, but psycho-acoustics.

To then argue against that, as if there is some sort of magic dust in a cable, that only ones favourite manufacture has managed to invent, with all due respect, seems quite ludicrous to me.

 

[Lee T]

The mains cable doesn't render the amp deficient.

It is the alleged requirement for the cable to correct for the amps deficiency in coping with subtle mains condition variations.


Why are you expecting presumably a hifi manufacturer with an obvious vested interest in defending their products and selling accessories to tell you anything other than what you obviously want to hear?

That's just daft.

So your take is, amps should be completely immune from incoming mains, any amp that is in the slightest sensitive is deficient.

So you would eliminate any of the below upgrades as fairy dust & having zero effect with a well designed amp showing no deficiencies in this area.

Dedicated mains supply to the hifi system
regeneration unit to supply a clean power supply to the hifi system
Cables we know all about
Any type of rfi filter network

If any of the above affects the amp, then they are deficient designs, correct.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

You are basically stating, every single Naim amplifier is deficient, Naim amps react quite sensitively to cabling of any kind, mains included, this is where your logic falls flat for me.

I should declare in advance that I've never been a fan of Naim anway. So may be judged as biassed. But if it *is* the case that their performance *is* "quite sensitive" to choice of mains cable, then personally, I'd regard that as a reason for me to continue to not want to use them. I prefer an amp to be sense its audio signal input and ignore mains effects so far as possible.

 

[Lee T]

normal fluctuations yep, you've got it. Totally unnecessary. Unless of course your amp is shit.

So why do you think regenerators get such an accepted easy ride on pfm, many suggest they use them without any comeback, whatsnext for one, he also claimed he achieved the same sound night & day from this option, meaning he didn't without it in place, are his amps deficient? I find this odd, seems more to do with belief systems than real world science.

 

[Lee T]

I should declare in advance that I've never been a fan of Naim anway. So may be judged as biassed. But if it *is* the case that their performance *is* "quite sensitive" to choice of mains cable, then personally, I'd regard that as a reason for me to continue to not want to use them. I prefer an amp to be sense its audio signal input and ignore mains effects so far as possible.

Do you know for certain your equipment is immune from such deficiencies Jim, one for BE too, have you tested out this theory on your own equipment as both of you have a hell of a lot to say about other people's gear based on their own tests with such a cable.

I have tested this out on many amps over the years with positive results, amps from many different designers, I find this claim a little out there i'm afraid, until this is proven to be true, I do not accept it. As I said earlier, it seems more of a get out clause to me, it's beginning to smell like personal bias & attempting to fit science around this bias rather than the other way round. The claim needs proving, blind testing can prove a cable affects an amp, there is no simpler way to judge this as I did, a claim that any amp affected by incoming mains is deficient needs some clarity from those making the claim.

 

[Julf]

So your take is, amps should be completely immune from incoming mains, any amp that is in the slightest sensitive is deficient.

You seem to have missed the requirement for the cable to correct part...

 

[BE718]

So your take is, amps should be completely immune from incoming mains, any amp that is in the slightest sensitive is deficient.

.

No, that's not what has been said, please re-read.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

So your take is, amps should be completely immune from incoming mains, any amp that is in the slightest sensitive is deficient.

So you would eliminate any of the below upgrades as fairy dust & having zero effect with a well designed amp showing no deficiencies in this area.

Dedicated mains supply to the hifi system
regeneration unit to supply a clean power supply to the hifi system
Cables we know all about
Any type of rfi filter network

If any of the above affects the amp, then they are deficient designs, correct.

No. because this hinges on a factor engineers understand well enough. It depends on what may reasonably expected in the intended application.

Thus if I design an amp for use in UK homes I'd need to take into account what kinds of variations in main voltage, waveform shape, RFI, etc, will apply in 'most' homes. Then a question of where, statistically, to peg 'most' and what kinds of effect that may have.

There will always be outlaying examples where something like a mains regenerator is required. But that should be unusual and exceptional. Nowhere near being the norm. If I'd designed and sold an amp where almost *every* buyer had to think of choosing a regenerator, RFI, filter, mains cable with care, I'd have felt I'd not done my job properly. But maybe I'm a bit old fashioned about this. So I just build a fair amount of rail/main rejection into the design. This really isn't Quantum Mechanics. Just sensible engineering.

To me this is like many other aspects of design engineering. What you design is meant to work in a specified range of situations.

 

[Errol]

Its not an opinion its a fact. If the amp is noticeably affected negatively by the tiny possible difference that a mains cable could cause to the mains conditions then it is defficient in the area of psu, psrr and emc.

Therefore a "design deficient" amp can be affected /sound changed by a different mains cable!

Surely this is what you are saying Mr BE.

Dearie me.

Mr ED

 

[whatsnext]

Has anyone taken up takeup MikeMusics offer to show how Mains Cables have changed his system. I believe he lives down a country lane and may suffer with supply problems.

 

[Julf]

Therefore a "design deficient" amp can be affected /sound changed by a different mains cable!

"If A then B" is not the same as "if B then A".

In logic, that confusion is a form of non sequitur called "affirming the consequent":

 

[DNM]

To then argue against that, as if there is some sort of magic dust in a cable, that only ones favourite manufacture has managed to invent, with all due respect, seems quite ludicrous to me.

I agree but its a 'blind' faith in the audiophile religion that you're dealing with here. You can't rationalise with somebody that puts blue tack in an amplifier and expects a better sound to come out of the speakers or regards a wobbly IEC connector as a design feature.

During my foo day's, I was crawling around my hifi swapping over the power leads when my wife came in and asked me what I was doing. When I explained, I could see the look of disdain start to appear on her face. It suddenly dawned on me this was no way for a grown man to behave and if I wanted to maintain any semblance of respect I'd better get a grip. Thankfully she never asked me how much the power leads cost! Needless to say, once I had snapped out of my audiophile stupor, the foo leads made no difference whatsoever to the sound.

 

[Lee T]

No, that's not what has been said, please re-read.

Please clarify as it seems this is precisely what you are claiming.

If a cable is rectifying the amps internal ability to remove even the slightest of mains noise from entering the amp, the amp is deficient, this is your take, said many times here.

I'm currently seeking a second opinion on the posts here from a very well regarding engineer, if he confirms your views, that's fine with me as he is someone who is out in the public arena so to speak, dealing with, servicing & repairing amps & other equipment on a daily basis, so someone I can relate to.

I will upload his response when & if I receive one.

Until then, you will be happy to hear i'm taking a break to listen to my deficient hifi gear

 

[Errol]

"If A then B" is not the same as "if B then A".

In logic, that confusion is a form of non sequitur called "affirming the consequent":

I certainly understand that, however that does not change the essence of his statement.
That "design deficient" amps can have the sound changed with a different cable.