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Decca cartridges

Hummer said:
May go back one day but difficult and expensive to get a good one as many are reconditioned and some a bit ropey.
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Reconditioned is good - providing it's been done by someone who knows what they are doing, like John Wright.

If it's old it would need doing anyway because it will be full of dirt and the little bit of suspension material it has will be knackered, and probably the tie-back gone too.

I think the 4s all have electrical damping which JW removes when he fits a new stylus. I don't think it's necessary with the diamond profiles and cuts he uses.
 
johncee said:
Just to return to cartridge/tonearm matching for Deccas, the only issue I have noticed with my Blue/Audiomods combo is that it goes bonkers on the HFNRR horizontal resonance track (very high amplitude oscillation). Apart from this, as I said earlier, I have no other problems with tracking etc. I reckon I can easily do a bit of DIY silicone damping on the arm (small plastic paddle attached to the rear of the counterweight into a small bath of silicone fluid). I guess this could help the horizontal resonance issue? opinions, anyone?
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I'm well aware that talking to oneself is the first sign of madness, but I wish to report that the damping experiment was an unqualified success. We can now track the HFNRR lateral resonance track without trauma, and the cartridge is sounding even better than before. Better clarity, space and detail, and any hint of edginess banished.
 
I've just got my Garrott Gold back in the arm (FR64fx) after tucking it away when I got married 25 years ago.It sounds great,but doesn't like any dust and is such a pig to align/setup.
It was jumping a bit on one LP's drum whack until I remembered I'd had a lot of bluetac packed on the front of the cartridge, between it and the headshell, and put it back.
Certainly improved tracking,but still have to watch it on the odd LP.For most of my listening I use the Garrott P77 with SAS stylus.I understand it was made to copy the Decca sound.Certainly tracks everything,but the Decca still has those magic dynamics.
 
Just giving this thread a bump as I will be needing it soon as I have just bought a John Wright rebuilt Paratrace-equipped C4E from teh eBays (Lencoheaven.
 
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Tony,

I'll send you a photo of my JW rebuilt C4E mounted in the Hadcock later. My C4E (with a fine line tip) runs at 1.8g and has 33k loading (as per JW's instructions) into my TRON Seven phono stage (built for my Decca).
Best wishes,

Charlie
 
Track at about 1.8g. Pinout is (L->R from rear) R, GND, NC, L.

People recommend around 30K loading, but you can start with standard MM (47K)

Mine works stunningly well in a Mission 774 on my 124. I am just building an arm wand to fit the head versions to a 774.
 
Thanks folks, I'm currently running my Rob-serviced/tweaked Quad 34 as that is ideally setup for the Ortofon 540/II or 2M Black I'm using at present at 39k/39pf, so sounds like the Decca should work well in this context as long as the low capacitance isn't an issue (the Ortofons sound shockingly bad with too much!). I've also got the JC Verdier pre (currently upstairs in the 149 rig) which I think has a lot of capacitance as it sounds pretty terrible with the Ortofons but lovely with a vintage M95ED I've got knocking around, so that may well end up back in the system, and as a final option I've got a Croft RIAA stage just boxed up until I've really decided where I'm going with pre-amplification, and IIRC Glen Croft is a real Decca fan so that should work well (sounds nice with the 540/II so I don't think it has much capacitance).
 
I want to try and understand exactly what the Decca wants in an arm before making any decisions there. I'm also kind of tied in some respects as my TD-124 looks so damn cool I'm very reluctant indeed to break the 1965-66 aesthetic with a modern arm. The C4E is an experiment, a way to dip my toes in the water in a very easy way as I don't need to change anything else to get it to work. If I really like it and feel it could be my only cart then I may try to hunt down a Mk IV head and use it with a period correct Decca arm, though the lack of anti-skate worries me a little.

The weird thing with Deccas is there seems to be a whole range of different views as to what the ideal arm is. Low mass uni-pivot Hadcocks are a very popular choice and apparently work well, though I've also seen folk rave about them in 774s, or Zetas, Fidelity Research, Schick and other high-mass arms. My SME is a medium mass (12.5g) arm so massier that a Hadcock or 774, a bit lighter than a Zeta and way lighter than a FR or Schick. I'd be interested to know the mass of the Decca FFSS or Professional arm as one would expect them to know what they were doing! I obviously understand mass is but one factor, but given the Decca's different behaviour vertically and laterally I'm curious as to what the best figure is. I assume a lot were used in 3009s and 3012s at the time as that was the default decent arm of the day.
 
Decca Mission so far:

32710062884_87bb52ec1f_z.jpg


AFAIU the Decca arm has a magnetic bias/anti-skate
 
My Decca has been in a few arms but works best in either high mass or damped arms. It's currently in a Kuzma Stogi S unipivot with a lot of silicone damping and sounds lovely. It worked well in a damped Hadcock too. It was less happy in a Technoarm but worked well in a Jelco 750, even better when a little damping was applied.

In theory, the SME is a suspect choice being as it has knife edge vertical bearings likely to be rattled badly by all the energy the Decca is going to put through them. If you have the damping trough I imagine it will work a lot better. Of course, people do use them in 3009 II's all the time so YMMV :)
 
Mine is the heavier earlier 1962-71 3009, not the low mass 'Improved' (though I have a couple of those too):

24573070931_3d2d6aaba2_c.jpg


A cartridge would really have to go some to rattle the knife-edge (which I'm convinced internet myth, the top-arm assembly must weigh 200g or so). Any play will actually be in the lateral bearings, which are not the best. I've actually got a set of new higher-spec lateral ball-races to fit to it when I can be bothered taking it to bits again! I suspect the main issues with 3009s are resonances elsewhere, and I'd certainly never argue it was the best arm in the world. The picture above shows the 3009 with a DL-103 (with an additional 9g headshell mass, hence the counterweight being so far back) in it and it worked rather well to my ears, etter than I've had out of a 103 in other arms. The 103 is a lot lower compliance than a Decca which is why I'm curious as to the ideal mass for this cart. I've no damping facility.

I understand from things I've read that there are situations where a Decca 'dance' (visibly wobble and mistrack) when the mass/compliance is hopelessly wrong, so I'd obviously like to avoid this area!

Anyone know how heavy the C4E body is and what its lateral compliance is? I'm assuming it is quite heavy from looking at it/its construction. I realise the vertical compliance is very low/boderline non-existent, but if I can get figures for the weight and lateral compliance I can probably figure out where issues may lie and maybe how to avoid them.

Edit: Just spotted Graham Tricker's post on page 2: Looks like vertical falls between 4-7cu depending on model and lateral between 12-15cu. Probably best to build the arm quite 'heavy' then with the additional rider-weight. I may need that anyway just to balance it out if it is as heavy as it looks!
 
An (S)C4e weighs 12.7gm. I ran one in my SME S2 Imp with a damping trough for a while, and it worked surprisingly well, although not as well as in the 774.

The 4 series are much heavier than the gold/red etc 5s.
 
Tony,

As promised, here is some information.

1) First up a photo of my Decca C4E mounted in my Hadcock - please note that I had J7 rewire my Hadcock with both earth leads going to a single cartridge clip.



2) Set -up

I track my rebuilt C4E (fine line as opposed to paratrace) at 1.8g, as suggested by JW. He recommended 33k loading and 220 pf capacitance (although the capacitance was only ever published for the Super Gold and JW said in his emails to me that the MkIV should be very similar 100-300 pf with 220 pF optimum)

Good luck

Charlie

PS Stunsworth is right - buy a Hadcock!
 
word has it the well tempered arm is especially good as a decca or strain gauge cartridge platform ... would love to hear that setup.
 
Jonathan said:
word has it the well tempered arm is especially good as a decca or strain gauge cartridge platform ... would love to hear that setup.
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I can see that working as the WT is effectively an inverted unipivot suspended on a thread (bit like the early 2 thread Schroeders) and damped by the golf ball in the trough.

I have used my Deccas in a Schroeder Model 2 to good effect, whislt my 1970s vintage Hadcock was u/s.
 
topoxforddoc said:
I can see that working as the WT is effectively an inverted unipivot suspended on a thread (bit like the early 2 thread Schroeders) and damped by the golf ball in the trough.

I have used my Deccas in a Schroeder Model 2 to good effect, whislt my 1970s vintage Hadcock was u/s.
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i was thinking of the 'classic' WT but the 'arnold palmer' edition is close enough

apparently old american lenco tonearms (something popular as of late - don't ask me why) are a nightmare with deccas
 
All good info, many thanks.

I googled-up a 1967 Hi-Fi News review of the C4E so some good specs and info here (page 1, page 2). Very interesting for me as the test rig was a TD-124 and a 3009 Series II, i.e. my deck! Also interesting to note they had issues with the cart in the earlier and higher-mass Series I SME, i.e. taking the mass upwards is likely not a good idea.

I'll need to decide whether to use the additional rider-weight or not. At 13g I may have to in order not to have the counterweight too far out back and it will be easier to get correct lateral balance weight too (the setting everyone forgets when setting up a SME!). My pic above is of the arm with a 8.5g DL-103 plus 2x 4.4g SME headshell weights, i.e. it is balancing out just under 19g of cartridge. The rider is fitted and the counterweight weight assembly ended up a bit further back than I'd like. I guess really I'll need to try both ways and see which works best.
 
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