It's a 3.5 hour train ride each way from here and £100 return ticket. Alternatively it's a 4 hour drive each way and about £60 of fuel.
Flatpopely NAIM based ABX test - 24th August
- Thread starter flatpopely
- Start date
It's a 3.5 hour train ride each way from here and £100 return ticket. Alternatively it's a 4 hour drive each way and about £60 of fuel.
darrylfunk
Banned
brian why don't you go in tensons place....
VLF? From a pair of Kans?????????
pure sound
Trade: manufacturer/distributor
Looking a bit wider, and with you in mind Guy, I wouldn't consider any Naim as transparent to a high sensitivity horn lover since the circuit is too noisy.
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Funnily enough I tried a mk1 Nait with my horn speakers not that long ago. It sounded surprisingly good. I expect I'd have found it preferable to a bigger, more complicated Naim pre-power combination under those circumstances with only a fraction of a Watt needed. They should make another shoebox sized amp of 10-12W, run it a bit richer & sell it to horny types. A whole new market sector for them. They'd do quite well!
darrylfunk
Banned
serge means the stuff going into the kans, causing possible modulation distortion or power sapping excursions from sub bass noises.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
I'll look for cone flap, not been an issue with the Prefix TBH; when I borrowed a Linn Uphorik I could not use it in my system, there was so much cone flap but replacing it with the Prefix removed it. I suspect that the Prefix has some kind of subsonic roll-off that the Uphorik does not have. Anyway VLF has never been an issue in my system since.
It is good to see something like this but the objectives are not that clear. Do you want the results to be externally accepted or are you just doing it for a bit of experience/laugh. Do you want to show that there are differences, there are no differences or both? Differences of what precisely? Music, revealing test tones, unrevealing test tones? Make it easy to hear differences or hard? ...
As has been pointed out earlier, the NAIT will distort the output signal an audible amount relative to a normal audio amplifier given a suitable signal and listening conditions. For example, playing an 18kHz tone (assuming youngish ears) and instantaneously switching will be trivial to identify by the difference in level. Waiting a minute while someone changes cables will make things more difficult but probably not too much given a large difference. Using music will make things a lot more difficult particularly if you cannot hone in on what seems to be different and instantaneously switch.
At present it looks a bit like a test where the "objectivists" will say the amplifiers are different (i.e. at least one amplifier is not transparent) but the test is conducted in a sufficiently insensitive manner using music and long changes that the "subjectivists" cannot identify any differences. It would be a fun outcome.
As has been pointed out earlier, the NAIT will distort the output signal an audible amount relative to a normal audio amplifier given a suitable signal and listening conditions. For example, playing an 18kHz tone (assuming youngish ears) and instantaneously switching will be trivial to identify by the difference in level. Waiting a minute while someone changes cables will make things more difficult but probably not too much given a large difference. Using music will make things a lot more difficult particularly if you cannot hone in on what seems to be different and instantaneously switch.
At present it looks a bit like a test where the "objectivists" will say the amplifiers are different (i.e. at least one amplifier is not transparent) but the test is conducted in a sufficiently insensitive manner using music and long changes that the "subjectivists" cannot identify any differences. It would be a fun outcome.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
The NAIT will be setup in such a way as I will have eliminated it clipping (thanks Serge
). The purpose of the test is simple, can one tell the difference between a NAIT and 72/135s if you can't see them and they are level matched; nothing more, nothing less.Switch time will be 30 secs or less so memory of a note, instrument etc. will still be fresh and it will be played 10 times, plenty of time to 'zone' in on any difference; if they exist
.darrylfunk
Banned
i don't really think you'll have a problem.... i think the toughest thing will be to get the nait noise floor vs clip level to a low enough level vs the pre power combo, i think with 3 or 4 people in a room the ambient noise will be a touch higher than normal.
i used to have a nait and went to 72/hicap/250 so know the differences i think.
for what it's worth and it's not relevant to this test but it was my comparing sessions of these amps that lead me away from naim amps very soon after.
i briefly tried the 52 and a few other combos but found to many compromises in the naim delivery character.
i think you guys are to be applauded for your tests, hope you have a great fun day and get some interesting and imformative test data.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Thanks Darryl!
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
The trouble with this kind of show-off-your-rigour level matched test is that you only get to hear how the two amps sound at volume x, not how they sound at a range of different volumes, from 'background', to 'intent listening', to 'full on party'. Hence for me the only really rigorous test of an amp (or anything else) needs a few volume adjustments in response to perceived level. Particularly since some amps come alive at different volume levels.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
At the end I'll let rip and lets see if the subjective test agrees with the objective one!
Tony L
Administrator
Kans have a rather narrow operating window as they are an LS3/5A sized sealed box mini-monitor with a Kef B110. Over the years I used them with a variety of amps from a Nait to 135s and I'd argue overall volume wasn't really any different as the more powerful amp was actually more likely to bottom-out the B110 on kick drums etc (you have to be *very* careful playing techno 12" singles etc on Kans!).
PS I'm not knocking Kans, they are a fun speaker and ideal for a small room / bedsit / city apartment living as they work nicely in tiny rooms. I used them for many years.
Do you consider an instantaneous switch and a switch after a 30 second delay to be equally revealing? Or that a 30 second delay is only a bit worse? Or significantly worse? Or that nothing can be done and so irrelevant?Switch time will be 30 secs or less so memory of a note, instrument etc. will still be fresh and it will be played 10 times, plenty of time to 'zone' in on any difference; if they exist
I am not trying to have a go but more to point out things like this are normally important for tests like this although it does of course depend on your objectives. So long as you measure what you intend to measure.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
If they do, then there's something very wrong with the amps as that shows non-linearity. If you mean that some amps sound better when louder, then yes, that's why level matching is important. It may also mean that you're letting the amp clip, and you like the "crunchier" sound that produces.
S.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
All up for debate; but isn't the point that such a big leap in the amplifier range (budget to what was at the time high-end) should be obvious, not something that you only spot in perfect conditions?
Tim
It is not up for debate in a scientific sense. It is has been there to serve the objectives of tests like the on proposed for a very long time.
Budget doesn't matter much these days when it comes to amplifying without audible distortion. But avoiding audible distortion is not necessarily an objective for audiophile amplifiers.
Perfect conditions may or may not matter depending on the objectives of the test. Is the objective to increase or decrease the sensitivity of the listening conditions to the audible differences that are present? That is a question for those devising the test to decide since it will affect the outcome since this does not seem to be a test between two of Serge's transparent amplifiers.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
On the contrary, it's why changing the volume is important. You need to know how an amp sounds quiet and loud.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
The object of the test is can you hear the difference between the amps blind, for the purposes of the test they will be matched to a point where they "should" be transparent (I'm doing this with Serge's very kind help) as neither will be clipping, so from the point of view that amps should sound the same, its a valid test.
If someone wants to do a test between another two amps please go ahead.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
On the list, thanks!