Challenge From Harbeth - Free M40.1 For Those Who Can Identify Amplifier Differences

[Interzone]

I am, reliably informed that the 40.1 is built in batches of just 3 pairs and take 2 full working days to complete. I apologise for my previous suggestion that 8 pairs a week are made as this seems to conflict with the above although I feel sure I remember such figure.

3 pairs take 2 days? So in 5 days 3x2.5=7.5 pairs a week on average which is pretty much 8! Am I missing something here?

 

[Dinovector]

I totally agree.But if your one of those who have been posting technical jargon over the last week refuting what Alan Shaw has said your going to look pretty daft if you take the test and can't spot the difference

I suspect Lugbutz is more likely to be hosting the challenge rather than making it

 

[Yank]

I think, quite clearly, Alan has already won as there must be, at best, very little difference between amplifiers otherwise people would take him on for a pair of £8K speakers under any test conditions?

Then we might as well close all the audio forums, there's not much else left to discuss. Start with the DIY forum, why build anything electronic when you can buy a Behringer for less than the price of a good pair of heat sinks?

 

[darrylfunk]

Then we might as well close all the audio forums, there's not much else left to discuss. Start with the DIY forum, why build anything electronic when you can buy a Behringer for less than the price of a good pair of heat sinks?

some people like different stuff.....

 

[Dinovector]

Then we might as well close all the audio forums, there's not much else left to discuss. Start with the DIY forum, why build anything electronic when you can buy a Behringer for less than the price of a good pair of heat sinks?

Can't close the forums, where the hell else are people going to go to throw dirt at Naim and Linn?

 

[Tony L]

II think, quite clearly, Alan has already won as there must be, at best, very little difference between amplifiers otherwise people would take him on for a pair of £8K speakers under any test conditions?

It all depends on the parameters of the test. I am certain that the amplifiers *that Harbeth owners typically use* do not always sound alike, though whether the test will represent the installed userbase is as yet unclear.

It may be interesting to list the amplifiers used by Harbeth owners here on pfm to establish diversity or lack thereof.

I've owned two pairs of Haerbeths; Compact 7ES and SHL5s. Over that time I used a Naim Nait 2, an A&R A60, a Densen Beat 100, a Prima Luna Prologue 2, a Quad 303, a Rega Brio and Rob's modified Quad 34/306.

 

[Elephantears]

It may be interesting to list the amplifiers used by Harbeth owners here on pfm to establish diversity or lack thereof.

I've owned two pairs of Haerbeths; Compact 7ES and SHL5s. Over that time I used a Naim Nait 2, an A&R A60, a Densen Beat 100, a Prima Luna Prologue 2, a Quad 303, a Rega Brio and Rob's modified Quad 34/306.

Good idea - but shall we start a new thread so that its not lost in the blah.

 

[regafan]

Interesting thread...
Wonder how many extra pairs of speakers have been ordered since it started?
Maybe it wasn't a marketing intention, but its sure taken off.
And all this before the test and results.

 

[John]

It all depends on the parameters of the test. I am certain that the amplifiers *that Harbeth owners typically use* do not always sound alike, though whether the test will represent the installed userbase is as yet unclear.

It may be interesting to list the amplifiers used by Harbeth owners here on pfm to establish diversity or lack thereof.

I've owned two pairs of Haerbeths; Compact 7ES and SHL5s. Over that time I used a Naim Nait 2, an A&R A60, a Densen Beat 100, a Prima Luna Prologue 2, a Quad 303, a Rega Brio and Rob's modified Quad 34/306.

You must have really been deluding yourself during that stretch. Thank goodness that period has passed.

 

[lugbutz]

I suspect Lugbutz is more likely to be hosting the challenge rather than making it

I like this... This is funny.. Alan Shaw traveling oncognito.. I can hear the music Now a version of Get smart and James Bond!

Hilarious to think Shaw is running around trolling forums in disguise!

Not just me either... Bet ya most of the supporters are Shaw as well!

 

[Tony L]

You must have really been deluding yourself during that stretch. Thank goodness that period has passed.

I don't follow? In what way? I also don't understand your insulting tone.

I bought the Compact 7s just over a decade ago as they were boxed, in near mint condition, and priced about 350 quid below market value. I planed to use them for a month just to get a BBC monitor fix, and then flip them out at a substantial profit. I ended up really liking them and kept them for around 5 years, in fact until the 1st pair of Tannoy Golds showed up. When I first bought them I was using a Naim Nait 2 with Kans. The Nait wasn't up to the task, so I flipped it out for a Beat 100. I also tried the A60 I had in the other system (which helped me establish the Nait was underpowered). I eventually upgraded to the Prima Luna.

The SHL5s were widely discussed here, and yes, I fully admit I made a mistake. A nice speaker, but I'd set the bar too high and found them a step backwards from the Tannoys. Even so I tried every amp I had to hand before flipping them back out, as yes, I do find amps make a difference.

FWIW I've always been an opportunistic hi-fi buyer. I've zero time for magazine / dealer ideology, marketing rhetoric or fashion and I've always done my own thing in my own time. I find the journey itself interesting - I'm one of those strange folk who actually like to learn for themselves.

 

[Brian]

you did say this was your view earlier in the thread.

and in another thread you accused rob and serge of saying all amps sound the same.

rob then said that all transparent amps would probably fail to be statistically identified by people....

i agree with that in principal.... though it was yank suggesting this not you....so i was wrong suggesting you misrepresented rob....it was yank.

i thought you agreed with yank but some posts got deleted when the name calling started....and no i hadn't been drinking, not touched a drop since saturday night....i was just trying to clarify your earlier post....no hard feelings as i agree with you on the view that people should buy what they enjoy.....even if it's not accurate sounding.

no one says 'all' amps sound the same....


will be having a few beers tonight though....please accept my apple loagy's...

I've no problem with anything you've ever posted to me, darryl. My own comment about having a drink was a joke as well, hope you enjoy one this evening.

I must have missed any name-calling by anyone.

 

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Werner
Sort of.

Imagine this test:

Take a UKP150 Boaringer, and a UKP15000 Krellinson.

Both are 100W in 8 Ohms. Both have less than 0.1% THD over a 20kHz bandwidth. The same with IMD. Both have at least 50dB channel separation over the full bandwidth. Both have a frequency response that is essentially blameless, say 0.1dB down at 20Hz and 20kHz. Both ... output impedance less than 0.1 Ohm.

Now pick a pair of speakers that allow both amplifiers to operate correctly (i.e. no Scintillas, no 70dB/1W unicum, ...). Choose a preamp that drives both amplifiers without side effects (i.e. no tube preamp with 5k output impedance and a 470nF series capacitor, ...).

Do level matching to within 0.1dB or better and do the test.

Will night-and-day differences be heard? Will any differences be heard at all, reliably, repeatably?

That is the question.

Good post and I'm imagining the test right now and to tell you the truth, I'm absolutely staggered that anyone gives a damn about any of that when trying to decide how to put together a system to allow enjoyment of music in the home. In fact, I doubt many do worry about any of that stuff, just the "religious" types, who apparently care more about technical specification than enjoying the music.

That's the whole point Brian.
Most amplifiers in use sit between the cheap Behringer and the expensive Krell, and in use they cannot be differentiated via listening unless you clip them or use silly loads.

So no, we shouldn't have to give a damn and should actually be focussing on the things that matter. That's the whole point of the argument, certainly from my POV.

Wires and digital (certainly in recent years) fall into the same category. The science required to understand these things is relatively simple and we should be able to move on and tackle the real problems in audio.

Just how many decades do we need to understand these simple things?

 

[John]

I don't follow? In what way? I also don't understand your insulting tone.

I bought the Compact 7s just over a decade ago as they were boxed, in near mint condition, and priced about 350 quid below market value. I planed to use them for a month just to get a BBC monitor fix, and then flip them out at a substantial profit. I ended up really liking them and kept them for around 5 years, in fact until the 1st pair of Tannoy Golds showed up. When I first bought them I was using a Naim Nait 2 with Kans. The Nait wasn't up to the task, so I flipped it out for a Beat 100. I also tried the A60 I had in the other system (which helped me establish the Nait was underpowered). I eventually upgraded to the Prima Luna.

The SHL5s were widely discussed here, and yes, I fully admit I made a mistake. A nice speaker, but I'd set the bar too high and found them a step backwards from the Tannoys. Even so I tried every amp I had to hand before flipping them back out, as yes, I do find amps make a difference.

FWIW I've always been an opportunistic hi-fi buyer. I've zero time for magazine / dealer ideology, marketing rhetoric or fashion and I've always done my own thing in my own time. I find the journey itself interesting - I'm one of those strange folk who actually like to learn for themselves.

Sorry, no insult intended, just a bit of sarcasm based off of Alan Shaw's theory.

 

[Robert]

I am stunned that there is not more interest..

In fact it convinces me that what Harbeth is saying is in fact correct.

1. System built around similar technical specs will sound identical! If its is so readily apparent to the pundits who troll these forums that amps and cables and the rest of the minim that make up an audiophiles kit must be considered wholistically, why are you not jumping to prove Harbeth wrong? The incentive is huge! To win a pair of 12K speakers.

My guess is that the apathy is really just a concession to the above mentioned fact.


2. Todays audiophile is actually supporting the demise of the quality audio Industry.

The inability of the audiophile to distinguish between true technical performance and marketing spin removes any incentive for manufacturers to innovate. Why actually build a system that sounds better, when you can "spin" how the music sounds. Research is expensive, forum opinion and marketing spin are cheap.

Ladies and Gentlemen... What Harbeth is attempting to do, is a call to arms for all us who love and enjoy music.

Excellent post. I thought it needed re-tweeting.

 

[Tony L]

Sorry, no insult intended, just a bit of sarcasm based off of Alan Shaw's theory.

Ah, I get it now! My current amps are even more characterful!

 

[Tenson]

Maybe I should get Eunji to have ago

I think the problem here is setting up all the required switching gear. Although not too hard, just some power relays.

 

[Robert]

The SHL5s were widely discussed here, and yes, I fully admit I made a mistake. A nice speaker, but I'd set the bar too high and found them a step backwards from the Tannoys. Even so I tried every amp I had to hand before flipping them back out, as yes, I do find amps make a difference.

I heard those very HL5s up at Tony's and also heard a difference between the PL and 34/306. But then so there should be with about 4 ohms difference in the output impedance!
The changes were perfectly in line with how this technical difference should change the sound. The changes were concentrated at the points were the load is most reactive - around the crossover point and system/port resonance.

Why is knowing this important?
Many argue that the end user just doesn't need to know this.

Well I'd argue that this is the best defence you can possibly have against the spin that has already been mentioned. Spin that costs money, can lead to wrong decisions and hinders progress.

Rob,

Forgetting about valve amps for the moment — which are way cool, especially if they look like a stingray — what modern solid-state amps do you think aren't transparent?

Joe

Good question Joe.
I can't actually think of one - which probably indicates the its pretty easy to make them!

You could probably find some budget amps that are sufficiently 'off' or some of the odd things that turn up on eBay these days, mostly from China.

 

[Tony L]

I heard those very HL5s up at Tony's and also heard a difference between the PL and 34/306. But then so there should be with about 4 ohms difference in the output impedance!
The changes were perfectly in line with how this technical difference should change the sound. The changes were concentrated at the points were the load is most reactive - around the crossover point and system/port resonance.

Using ears alone I'd argue the PL2/SHL5 combo was more balanced / accurate overall: it sounded closer to the sound I get from my HD600s than via the 34/306, which sounded rather small, dry and mid-centric by comparison, though very smooth and nicely detailed. I tend to use cans as a reference, the closer I can get the system to them the better IMO. It's one of the things I like a lot about your 63s, they have a very headphone-like tonal balance.

 

[Robert]

Using ears alone I'd argue the PL2 was more accurate; the tonal balance from the PL2 / SHL5s sounded far closer to that from my HD600s than via the 34/306, which sounded rather small, dry and mid-centric by comparison. I tend to use cans as a reference, the closer I can get the system to them the better IMO. It's one of the things I like a lot about your 63s, they have a very headphone-like tonal balance.

I thought the PL made them sound honky and coloured.
I thought you did too?

I'd substitute tighter and more agile for your small and dryer though.
Sighted though, so all questionable.

It would make a good candidate for the Harbeth challenge so long as output impedance wasn't on Alan's Radar.
Shame its gone - could've bagged you some M40s