Challenge From Harbeth - Free M40.1 For Those Who Can Identify Amplifier Differences

[Werner]

Is this what's trying to being said?:

All amplifiers that exhibit distortion below .1% and operated within their design parameters etc.

Sort of.

Imagine this test:

Take a UKP150 Boaringer, and a UKP15000 Krellinson.

Both are 100W in 8 Ohms. Both have less than 0.1% THD over a 20kHz bandwidth. The
same with IMD. Both have at least 50dB channel separation over the full bandwidth.
Both have a frequency response that is essentially blameless, say 0.1dB down at
20Hz and 20kHz. Both ... output impedance less than 0.1 Ohm.

Now pick a pair of speakers that allow both amplifiers to operate correctly (i.e. no Scintillas,
no 70dB/1W unicum, ...). Choose a preamp that drives both amplifiers without side effects (i.e. no tube preamp with 5k output impedance and a 470nF series capacitor, ...).

Do level matching to within 0.1dB or better and do the test.

Will night-and-day differences be heard? Will any differences be heard at all, reliably, repeatably?

That is the question.

 

[Dinovector]

I could do that. I already am a local champion.

Dream on, you don't even come close

 

[BlueEyes]

I have lived a life where people far cleverer than me have had to explain things to me so I could then explain to them the best way of, practically, pursuing what they want.

I don't understand any of the measurements here and, I mean no disrespect when I say that it appears, I stand to be corrected, more an internal talking shop rather than an attempt to wrest a pair of £8K+ speakers from Alan Shaw.

I, personally, wouldn't mind having those speakers so would someone mind explaining to me what parameters might be acceptable to Alan Shaw rather than would be acceptable to the posters on pfm?

Whilst I know nothing about the intricacies of amplifier design i like to think I know a little about human nature and I doubt very much that Alan has any intention of parting with a pair of his flagship speakers other than on terms that are acceptable him, however, unacceptable that may be to the denizens of pfm or any other hifi site.

 

[whatsnext]

I have lived a life where people far cleverer than me have had to explain things to me so I could then explain to them the best way of, practically, pursuing what they want.

I don't understand any of the measurements here and, I mean no disrespect when I say that it appears, I stand to be corrected, more an internal talking shop rather than an attempt to wrest a pair of £8K+ speakers from Alan Shaw.

I, personally, wouldn't mind having those speakers so would someone mind explaining to me what parameters might be acceptable to Alan Shaw rather than would be acceptable to the posters on pfm?

Whilst I know nothing about the intricacies of amplifier design i like to think I know a little about human nature and I doubt very much that Alan has any intention of parting with a pair of his flagship speakers other than on terms that are acceptable him, however, unacceptable that may be to the denizens of pfm or any other hifi site.

If you want to know what Mr Shaws parameters are then read his posts much better to have the horses mouth than hearing someone elses interpretation of them. Just read Mr Shaws early posts from No 1 onwards

Whilst you may want the speakers if you haven't got your head round the test then perhaps you should be realistic in your hopes.

 

[BlueEyes]

fair point whatsnext. I am from the remedial class of audiophile appreciation and was just rather hoping than rather read the above, which I don't understand, I might be allowed to just plonk myself in front of the speakers and have a go?!

 

[Dinovector]

I think it should be quite simple, design and build the switch with loading built in for the amp that's not currently connected to the speakers. Get a standard Naim amp and one that's been modified by Avondale, then if all is to be believed a difference will be heard and the speakers will be yours

 

[whatsnext]

fair point whatsnext. I am from the remedial class of audiophile appreciation and was just rather hoping than rather read the above, which I don't understand, I might be allowed to just plonk myself in front of the speakers and have a go?!

So you have read Mr Shaws early posts and are unabled to appreciate their message? If so you are rather like a man who sees an aeroplane and expects to just fly one without any training or prior knowledge

 

[arthur]

So you have read Mr Shaws early posts and are unabled to appreciate their message? If so you are rather like a man who sees an aeroplane and expects to just fly one without any training or prior knowledge

I can do that!

But I fall out of the sky. Hmm...perhaps there's something to this 'real' knowledge business then.

 

[BlueEyes]

So you have read Mr Shaws early posts and are unabled to appreciate their message? If so you are rather like a man who sees an aeroplane and expects to just fly one without any training or prior knowledge

Happy to be a passenger watching the audio view. We don't all need to know how it works

 

[lugbutz]

Sooooo... I have heard a lot of posturing on this forum... is there anyone who is actually going to take Mr. Shaw up on his challenge?

Would seem to me he has provided nearly everything required from details for the switch to offers to build the switch.



Details are Here.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...er-evaluation-of-amplifiers&p=18659#post18659

 

[lugbutz]

I am stunned that there is not more interest..

In fact it convinces me that what Harbeth is saying is in fact correct.

1. System built around similar technical specs will sound identical! If its is so readily apparent to the pundits who troll these forums that amps and cables and the rest of the minim that make up an audiophiles kit must be considered wholistically, why are you not jumping to prove Harbeth wrong? The incentive is huge! To win a pair of 12K speakers.

My guess is that the apathy is really just a concession to the above mentioned fact.


2. Todays audiophile is actually supporting the demise of the quality audio Industry.

The inability of the audiophile to distinguish between true technical performance and marketing spin removes any incentive for manufacturers to innovate. Why actually build a system that sounds better, when you can "spin" how the music sounds. Research is expensive, forum opinion and marketing spin are cheap.

Ladies and Gentlemen... What Harbeth is attempting to do, is a call to arms for all us who love and enjoy music.

 

[sideshowbob]

2. Todays audiophile is actually supporting the demise of the quality audio Industry.

The inability of the audiophile to distinguish between true technical performance and marketing spin removes any incentive for manufacturers to innovate. Why actually build a system that sounds better, when you can "spin" how the music sounds. Research is expensive, forum opinion and marketing spin are cheap.

Spot on. Nothing more to add.

 

[sergeauckland]

I am stunned that there is not more interest..

In fact it convinces me that what Harbeth is saying is in fact correct.

1. System built around similar technical specs will sound identical! If its is so readily apparent to the pundits who troll these forums that amps and cables and the rest of the minim that make up an audiophiles kit must be considered wholistically, why are you not jumping to prove Harbeth wrong? The incentive is huge! To win a pair of 12K speakers.

My guess is that the apathy is really just a concession to the above mentioned fact.


2. Todays audiophile is actually supporting the demise of the quality audio Industry.

The inability of the audiophile to distinguish between true technical performance and marketing spin removes any incentive for manufacturers to innovate. Why actually build a system that sounds better, when you can "spin" how the music sounds. Research is expensive, forum opinion and marketing spin are cheap.

Ladies and Gentlemen... What Harbeth is attempting to do, is a call to arms for all us who love and enjoy music.

The current popularity of obsolete technologies like valves and vinyl indicate to me that you're spot-on. Why strive towards uncoloured loudspeakers if what "audiophiles" want is coloration? It seems that choosing one's preferred coloration is what HiFi is now about, not trying to eliminate it.

Madness.

S.

 

[sonddek]

Why do they [SET amps] sound good? Or at least some, 'cos like anything else, I've heard good and bad.

 

[sonddek]

My mum used to say that all pop music sounds the same. Plenty other people can't tell the difference between Mozart and Beethoven.

When I was a teenager my father leapt up two flights of stairs and burst into the room which had the washing machine in it with Harrison Ford alarm in his face. He thought it had come off its bearing again. He soon realised it was my latest 80's dance record and told me to f**king turn it down. I don't think it was Mr Fingers.

 

[sonddek]

I will reiterate, my house, my music, my time, my system. etc etc. I dont want to be trying to hear through new speakers, a new room, new source, crap music, hurried swaps between amps.

I did this recently between my Klimax Kontrol 1/D and a Creek OBH-22. I sold the KK. To be honest, I was routing for the KK, but that didn't work out. The Creek let a little more detail through. Now the usual suspects are going to tell me there was something wrong with the KK. I don't believe it.

 

[darrylfunk]

When I was a teenager my father leapt up two flights of stairs and burst into the room which had the washing machine in it with Harrison Ford alarm in his face. He thought it had come off its bearing again. He soon realised it was my latest 80's dance record and told me to f**king turn it down. I don't think it was Mr Fingers.

great record - washing machine - gotta love larry heard and the crew....not very audiophile either!!!!

 

[Brian]

The current popularity of obsolete technologies like valves and vinyl indicate to me that you're spot-on. Why strive towards uncoloured loudspeakers if what "audiophiles" want is coloration? It seems that choosing one's preferred coloration is what HiFi is now about, not trying to eliminate it.

Madness.

S.

As I've been telling you for some time now, more people are interested in how music sounds than the technical specification of the equipment. I'd even go so far to say that I think more people are interested in the appearance of the equipment than it's specification.

Obtaining pleasure from listening to music is the main reason for being interested in any of this, so that explains why there is such interest in vinyl and valves. The result is generally more enjoyable to listen to.

I am stunned that there is not more interest..

In fact it convinces me that what Harbeth is saying is in fact correct.

I'm not stunned at all. The test is heavily weighted in favour of Harbeth. However, if they want to let me compare a naim 32.5/140 versus a naim 42.5/140 (that I'm assured sound the same) I'll be up for it.

1. System built around similar technical specs will sound identical! If its is so readily apparent to the pundits who troll these forums that amps and cables and the rest of the minim that make up an audiophiles kit must be considered wholistically, why are you not jumping to prove Harbeth wrong? The incentive is huge! To win a pair of 12K speakers.

My guess is that the apathy is really just a concession to the above mentioned fact.

2. Todays audiophile is actually supporting the demise of the quality audio Industry.

The inability of the audiophile to distinguish between true technical performance and marketing spin removes any incentive for manufacturers to innovate. Why actually build a system that sounds better, when you can "spin" how the music sounds. Research is expensive, forum opinion and marketing spin are cheap.

Ladies and Gentlemen... What Harbeth is attempting to do, is a call to arms for all us who love and enjoy music.

Define better? Surely there is no such thing.

By the way, it is not todays audiophile that is supporting the demise of quality audio, that's the industry by churning out crap sounding releases.

Sort of.

Imagine this test:

Take a UKP150 Boaringer, and a UKP15000 Krellinson.

Both are 100W in 8 Ohms. Both have less than 0.1% THD over a 20kHz bandwidth. The same with IMD. Both have at least 50dB channel separation over the full bandwidth. Both have a frequency response that is essentially blameless, say 0.1dB down at 20Hz and 20kHz. Both ... output impedance less than 0.1 Ohm.

Now pick a pair of speakers that allow both amplifiers to operate correctly (i.e. no Scintillas, no 70dB/1W unicum, ...). Choose a preamp that drives both amplifiers without side effects (i.e. no tube preamp with 5k output impedance and a 470nF series capacitor, ...).

Do level matching to within 0.1dB or better and do the test.

Will night-and-day differences be heard? Will any differences be heard at all, reliably, repeatably?

That is the question.

Good post and I'm imagining the test right now and to tell you the truth, I'm absolutely staggered that anyone gives a damn about any of that when trying to decide how to put together a system to allow enjoyment of music in the home. In fact, I doubt many do worry about any of that stuff, just the "religious" types, who apparently care more about technical specification than enjoying the music.

That's it.

Ok ta. So all amplifiers don't sound the same.

Yes, I understood Rob correctly and that is as I posted yesterday.

@darryl,
Were you drinking yesterday evening, darryl?

 

[darrylfunk]

The test is biased toward the manufacturer of expensive loudspeakers proving cheap electronics sound the same as expensive electronics. What's the surprise there?

you did say this was your view earlier in the thread.

and in another thread you accused rob and serge of saying all amps sound the same.

rob then said that all transparent amps would probably fail to be statistically identified by people....

i agree with that in principal.... though it was yank suggesting this not you....so i was wrong suggesting you misrepresented rob....it was yank.

i thought you agreed with yank but some posts got deleted when the name calling started....and no i hadn't been drinking, not touched a drop since saturday night....i was just trying to clarify your earlier post....no hard feelings as i agree with you on the view that people should buy what they enjoy.....even if it's not accurate sounding.

no one says 'all' amps sound the same....

will be having a few beers tonight though....please accept my apple loagy's...

 

[BlueEyes]

Ladies and Gentlemen... What Harbeth is attempting to do, is a call to arms for all us who love and enjoy music.

I totally agree.But if your one of those who have been posting technical jargon over the last week refuting what Alan Shaw has said your going to look pretty daft if you take the test and can't spot the difference ergo the never ending prevarication as to how the test be set up rather than a pro-active, and immediate, response to Alan.

I think, quite clearly, Alan has already won as there must be, at best, very little difference between amplifiers otherwise people would take him on for a pair of £8K speakers under any test conditions?

I am, reliably informed that the 40.1 is built in batches of just 3 pairs and take 2 full working days to complete. I apologise for my previous suggestion that 8 pairs a week are made as this seems to conflict with the above although I feel sure I remember such figure.